Anthropology Meets Journalism: How Two Fields Can Save Each Other

Adam 0:00

Hey there, welcome to this Anthro life, the podcast that explores what it means to be human in the 21st century. I'm your host, Adam Gamwell. And excited to have you on this journey with us today. So have you ever wondered how journalists navigate the challenges of their profession and an ever evolving media landscape? Like in a world of online harassment, or media pitfalls, or questions of trust with the public, journalists face unprecedented challenges? And as one of our main professions and channels through which we learn about the world, that's gonna have profound implications. So in this episode, we're diving headfirst into this question and what happens when anthropology and journalism collide? How could ethnographic methods and storytelling techniques transform the way that we communicate the human experience? So today, I'm joined by Emily Kennedy, the founder of Anthro journal.org, to look at and talk about her experiences about merging these two worlds. Now Emily brings a unique perspective to the table and offers valuable solutions to the issues impacting media today, because she's been on the forefront as a journalist and anthropologist exploring the challenges faced by modern journalism, and media organizations. And the work now is to unlock the potential of ethnography and anthropological thinking to address these challenges head on. Without further ado, let's dive on

Emily 1:09

my degree was an anthropology and then I went on to work as a journalist. But in between those two things happening, I came across this chapter that was called ethnographic journalism. And it just stuck with me, I remember I photocopied it back in the days of photocopying things. And I kept it with me, and I refer to it a lot. And then a decade goes by and I'm asked to be an instructor at journalism school. And I'm in that role then plugged in more to what other journalism instructors are teaching. And then also, because I was teaching, I was the community liaison, for course, that was around local news reporting local news. And even that alone, like being hired to do that was partly because I had this ability to get people to talk to me get communities to open up to me as magazine editor, I was able to go into communities that some people like other journalists maybe weren't able to, or maybe just there was some aversion. So I'd proven myself in that sense in the city. And so this school, asked me to be this community liaison for this new course. Anyway. So I'm rubbing shoulders with all these people that are journalism instructors, and then also like local news outfits like researching this or trying to be innovative in that space. And in both examples, I just saw them come up with, I guess, what they thought were things that they'd learned through what they were innovating around, or like tips and recommendations that they were trying to share with other instructors or with other local news producers. And they sounded like ethnographic methods to me. So much, so that one of them, I even reached out and asked the director of this local news project that had been given a couple of grants to research some things. Are you working with anthropologists? And she wrote back to me, and I remember, she was a little confused and was like, no. But to my eyes, like it was so clear, these are ethnographic methods. Why aren't we calling it this? The two disciplines have long been considered kin. And so it's maybe not surprising that they share so many similarities. I think just what happened is, we forgot a little bit. And we can get into that. But a lot of the research then that I started to do was about like 25 years old plus. So for certain reasons, I guess just lost momentum. And sexier things came along that journalism started to adopt. And they forgot about dusty old anthropology.

Adam 4:01

Even as you're finding in conversations ethnography was going down in terms of like volume of conversation, but it was still there, that there is this recognition from the journalism community that that we can learn from these different sides of storytelling or design work. These different frameworks?

Emily 4:19

Yeah, it's partly like journalism is in need of being thrown some kind of lifesaver. And I think that's why in that ocean that journalists are drowning in they're being asked to do way more than ever before, right. They're now doing hits for the website, print, TV, radio, and some social media stuff like all at the same time. nevermind the fact that newsrooms are contracting, there's just less people in general to do the job. They were drowning a little bit and I think just reaching out for anything that looked like it could help and that's where like you're saying they We're pulling in these new ideas because they can't help. But I think what came out to me from some conversations with researchers in anthropology and communications, was these things that were modern, like you're saying that were like attractive because they were new, or maybe that journalism was hearing about because they were new, and so tried to use them. A lot of them were solutions, like solutions, journalism is actually one, they were focusing on a problem. And ethnography doesn't do that, right. It's holistic, it really views everything. And the context is really important. So I think that's where anthropology and ethnography really offer more, not just because they also are in many ways, some of the founding pieces of these newer ways of thinking and theories, but they also just at their core are more encompassing. So yeah, and I did ask some of the researchers, what do you think happened, some of these people that were researching it back in the 1980s 90s, early aughts, and their answers were a mixture of we just grew out of it. Research took us elsewhere. I know. But also some of it was just timing was bad. So both journalism and anthropology from what these researchers told me were experiencing the similar issue of trying to own their space in academia, and prove themselves as worthy subjects. And if you started to dilute your discipline with something else, you would have more trouble making that case. Or at least that's what they said, in that sense, that also kind of botched the idea of reaching out and trying to graph anthropology onto journalism, because they really wanted to show anthropology as a serious discipline in an academic sense.

Adam 6:55

And so that was something else that always stuck with me that because writing typically as an apologist is, again, one of the main ways that folks going through school would then have to get their work out there. Journalists, to even today, like writing is still one of the main ways you get your stories, your media outright, I think we're seeing on on both sides of the enthroned journalism fence, like the back and forth is that what counts is the right kind of writing? I'm curious, your thoughts about that, too? What counts is the right kind of journalism, from your perspective? Is it leaning into what I have produced? Like what I've written? Or is it like the methods of how I got the story in the first place? Or is there a way to place equally on both sides of it?

Emily 7:31

Yeah, I think both. But also, I think it's important to note, like, let's be humble about both disciplines, they weren't the first ones to come up with a lot of the concepts that are used, right, they've pulled from others for a long time, and then stamped it as their own over time for both. But for journalists, at least, there's maybe less publicly communicated around what goes into producing a piece of journalism, versus maybe an anthropology, the methods are a little bit more, in general in academia, right? It's of interest, it's, would be right there in the paper, like, these are the methods. So I think for journalism, and I used to say this to the journalists that I worked with, as an editor that it would probably do good for them to pull that curtain back and show on social media, for example, how they put a story together. And that's partly because journalism, of course, with the rise of technological disruption to who can be published voice, they started to suffer from what makes us a professional at this. And if you can show readers, how the sausage is made professionally, I think that increases trust in news increases trust in journalism, and furthers the idea that there's professional skills behind this. But again, like those methods that they use, some of the skills are pulled from other places. And I think also, that's okay. And journalists have long, maybe been a little more open to that. Because when you're creating a piece, let's say a magazine piece, you're already working with multiple disciplines, right? You've got the photographer and the graphic designer and the creative director and all kinds of other things. So it's a little bit maybe more natural that you're having to accept that your skills are not the only ones that go into this production. But yeah, I think that maybe in journalism, the end product is what people think of, but it would benefit if they could show a little bit more of the methods that they use.

Adam 9:41

Yeah, I think that's a really great point. And I like the way you illustrated that as a reminder that the process itself is also multidisciplinary. For journalists More typically, if you have a graphic designer, you have maybe a typesetter. But you've got also you always have an editor also, who you're working with to do the reporting. To collect the stories to do the investigations. And so I think that there's that interesting piece that I think it would be helpful for anthropologists also remember that you if you're using the anthropologist, if you're writing something that yeah, maybe you writing the piece, but of course, during fieldwork, we work with a ton of different people too. And so a lot of emphasis is on the writing of the individual anthropologist, but it's like, there's also in its own way, it kind of it still is a team effort. But so it's interesting question of the field work is the team part. And then the production of the writing is a little bit more individualized. I also have in my head, like, oh, the journalist is out there doing their investigation,

Emily 10:30

by themselves, it but it is very, it's pretty solo, you're not wrong. In that view of it again, particularly more and more, you're being asked to even be the cameraman. So there isn't as much collaboration as before. And there wasn't a lot in beginning, particularly if you're a writer. And that's even more so because your name is attached to something, you've got a byline on it. So it really is like, you're the one and only Yeah, maybe there's a caption on the photo. But But yeah, journalists largely do work very much as an individual. And both though, when you're producing anything written, there's this this idea that the author has the final say, so whoever is the voice, writing the piece is the one who's going to be able to decide the viewpoint. And that's something that both ethnographers and journalists struggle with, I say struggle, I feel like journalists probably don't actually struggle with that, as much. ethnographers probably do a little more, because they're trying to tell this, this story from the point of view of the people or the communities that they're researching. But at the end of the day, it's, of course, going through their own lens. But that's one of the things that I think journalists could learn from ethnography, if they could adopt more of that self awareness that it is going through their lens, at every touch point,

Adam 11:46

something you brought up there in terms of the idea of reflexivity, right, or being able to bring it into the story itself, the process of how I'm thinking about the perspective I'm bringing to the story. The pieces that is interesting here is like we have a bunch of challenges faced in the field. So one of the things I was really excited to talk with you about, we're now opening up this can of worms, as it were, it's like the kinds of problems that you wanted to solve by bringing anthropology and journalism together. And so one of the reasons I found your work so attractive is this idea of like, how do we bring these two pieces together? Because there's so much type of stories that we need to tell for the world in terms of bringing truth out and shining light in the darkness as it were. But then also like being real enough about what we're telling in terms of, are we telling enough of the sides of the story? Are we telling enough of the holistic piece without losing people also someone falling asleep? Because I don't need a 45 page story about a hamburger? I want to know about what happened at the restaurant. And thinking about that. Can you walk us through some of these ideas of the problems that you wanted to solve? Like, what does bring an anthropology and journalism together do for you?

Emily 12:44

Yeah, well, that's open, let the worms out.

Adam 12:47

Let the worms out.

Emily 12:50

So yeah, that's just it. That's how I came to it was, there were challenges that journalists are facing and journalism, as a profession in general is facing and have been for a while. And journalists and media organizations have been struggling to try and solve these challenges. For years, I've seen them particularly working as a print magazine editor and writer, because obviously, print was really hard hit by technological disruption in the internet. But across all facets of journalism, everyone's experiencing it. And individual journalists themselves is really where I started to feel the focus, because a lot of the journalists that I was working with, and particularly young journalists and the journalists that I was interacting with, as an instructor at the journalism school, I just really felt that they were going into this profession with a lot of worry, because these challenges didn't seem to be being resolved very quickly. They still exist. And I really deeply believe that methods pulled from ethnography can help some of the recurring challenges. You don't have to be a journalist to to know obviously, there's issues with the business model of journalism, again, like print, there's issues with online harassment and social media. There's big issues with trust, trust in media outlets, but trust and even individual journalists, and as a journalist, I'm sure every journalist has experienced this where you pick up the phone to to ask someone a question that is not at all a gotcha question. And they are really averse to talking to you. And there's this apprehension that just seems to naturally come from the public in general, any community and obviously, some communities, rightly so where maybe they've been misrepresented for a long time in the media. But there's also kind of smaller challenges within there that it's more like areas that I think would improve things and in aggregate, maybe you'd see a larger improvement things like just how do you get a better interview? The journalistic interview works, obviously, but I think the ethnographic interview is much more in depth and more empathetic and does a really good job. Out of letting people tell their story from their point of view and really be heard. So yeah, everything from big challenges to little ones is where I approach this from, and then how can ethnographic methods help these challenges?

Adam 15:14

That's a really interesting point. And I remember one of the things that we in the participatory design class that I was teaching, we basically did speculative design, because we didn't have a ton of informants to go chat with in the class came up with different design scenarios or different solutions that would help kind of improve some of these processes. And one of the things that came up with unprompted was like, how do we improve the interview process? And this is like, in an ideal scenario, I think they basically came up with repurposing an ambulance or a mail truck into having a little micro interview studio. We feel more comfortable to go into communities themselves and have this fun, though, these funny ideas, but also but premise on the same point of what does it mean to be able to have someone tell the story from their own perspective in a way they feel comfortable in the way that they feel like they're going to be heard and thinking about the underlying challenge? And also, you're highlighting this notion to have what does it mean to do an interview? What are we trying to get when you do an interview in this case? And so why would ethnography be helpful? There is this interesting question of, do we have a bit more space for telling that story, from someone's perspective? And then what does that mean to then translate that to print or a digital story in a journalistic context?

Emily 16:18

Yeah, so the ethnographic interview and the journalistic interview, there are similarities because both disciplines use the interview as a method and a really important one. But there's quite a few differences between the two largely as the approach so of course, ethnographers go in with an open mind. And journalists usually go in with an angle, and worse, sometimes journalists go in just looking for a particular quote. And then once they get it, it's okay, shut everything off. I'm out of here. But a good journalist would have at least a bit of an open mind and at minimum, finish off with a question. Is there anything else you'd like to add? But I think what's interesting about comparing the journalistic versus ethnographic interview, is when you think about like the way that you conduct yourself as an interviewer. First of all, before the interview ever happens, you want to build a relationship with the person you're going to interview right? ethnographers build rapport first, and then they'll schedule their interviews, journalist won't always do that, they'll sometimes just pick up the phone. But that'll go a long way to someone trusting you to someone being willing to have a more in depth conversation. showing empathy is another way that I think ethnographers conduct a really good interview, or facilitating just that other person feeling comfortable and trying to reduce apprehension can be done by showing empathy through like, even just the way that you conduct yourself in their space, remembering that you're in their space. For one thing, usually journalists are in someone else's space. So commenting on things, noticing things that you like, I know that all sounds like small potatoes, but it really goes a long way. And particularly in aggregate, even just the way that journalists will ask questions. A common thing is journalists need to ask, What's your name? How do you spell it? That's very, in your face. So setting a tone that's a little bit more empathetic. So maybe like, instead of what's your kid's name? Can you spell it? I'm really interested to hear more about your child. Oh, their name is Bobby, how old is Bobby? Do you spell Bobby with a why? There's just a way that you can approach people. And yes, it might take an extra couple of words, but it's not going to take you an extra couple of hours. So these are little things, I think beyond just not allowing your interview to be guided by story angle, but instead by curiosity, some larger things, I think there's this idea of abbreviation that comes from ethnography. So when you interview someone who shares your culture, your conversation is going to be filled with references that just hint at things. So you're abbreviating, and journalists, of course, are reporting on people that share their culture all the time, particularly if you live in the same city. If you're a beat reporter, then you share the same culture like a crime reporter would be sharing a lot of the same culture of the day to day of a police officer of a medic things like that. You would be using abbreviations and they would be more importantly, they would be using abbreviations with you and you might not even realize it. The ethnographer is trained to recognize abbreviation particularly when they're reporting or researching within their own culture. Right. And I think one way that ethnographers do this really well is in their field notes, being able to code the different languages that are being used. When you translate that to journalists, let's say going back to the crime reporter. If you're talking to police, in your notes, being able to even if it's shorthand or like a highlighter or whatever, this is police jargon and reminding yourself this person is using language and probably using abbreviations and probably also just leaving things right out because they think that I can fill in the blanks, and you probably can. But it's in there that you might be missing something. And I think that just doing the extra step of even in your notes, marking what language is being used, whether that's medical language, police language, legal language, if it's a courtroom kind of thing, and not being shy to ask the person you're interviewing in the moment to explain that piece of language or maybe use other language or reframe the question in a way that they have to answer it again, but try to get them to use other language because most likely they are abbreviating and you're missing something? Yeah, these are just like some of the specifics around how an ethnographic interview is a little bit different and thinks about the interview differently from journalism. And I think that journalists can learn a lot from looking at their interview through an ethnographic lens. That's great. I think maybe one other difference is yeah, the ethnographic interview is driven by curiosity, journalistic, often driven by story angle, but related to that, then the notes that you take. So the ethnographer is probably taking notes that are both the EMIC etic, the two, and they're probably also taking notes that are emotions, what they feel as well as emotions that the person they're interviewing is communicating. Whereas the journalist is usually just taking that perspective. So notes on statements from the source, things that they can fact check later. But they would benefit from taking notes on also the emotional side. And again, that self reflexive, their own emotions, their own thoughts around being in that person's culture, or community. I think that even if they didn't use them in the story at that time, if they keep those notes and refer back to them, the next time that they're reporting on that community, it could give them insight and go a long way to producing more in depth pieces about that community.

Adam 21:53

And what I'd add to that, I think that's a really important point is this empathetic perspective, right? This is like anthropology one on one too. Yeah. It's like the EMIC is the internal like perspective of how does people in the in group understand themselves? And how do they talk about themselves. And so you're appointed by abbreviation is really important. When are people using shorthand, or this is something that we both understand. So I'm not even going to say a lot of implicit knowledge and edek. The opposite side is like how to outsiders understand this group. And so as a journalist, or an anthropologist, it's like always important to understand what language what code Am I using? Writing about this for taking notes? Am I writing about it from the outsider's perspective? Am I getting the insider's perspective? And then not to throw a wrench in the works, but like one of the big challenges too, that anthropologists can face is that journalists too, is that sometimes your informants or people you're talking to, will give you answers they think you want to hear, which is like they're giving you the edek answer from an EMIC perspective, which I know sounds crazy, but also an important thing to recognize. When we're telling those stories. Are we getting the insider's perspective? Are we getting the the insider's perspective of the outsider's perspective? Or are we just bringing our outsider's perspective to the conversation? So it is those three pieces that I think, to me makes sense to the interview process so fascinating. But also like you got to be on your guard, and paying attention to how we're talking to each other. And so I think that's such a key piece. And I liked how you noted the the, if you're talking with court reporters, for example, they're gonna have legalese or legal language that your average person may not be able to talk about.

Emily 23:15

Yeah. And again, like there's assumptions implied there, there's an assumption that you understand. And you probably do, but it's still an assumption. So there's probably also just this little piece that you don't understand, not in the same way that they do anyway. So it's getting at that. And the more you can just pry open those cracks is a little bit, I think, is where you'll get really interesting new information. Yeah, I think that there's just so much there that journalists can learn from the ethnographic interview.

Adam 23:45

That's a really interesting point. Something else that comes to mind too, is that we talked a little bit about methods before like ethnography and where and when do we show our cards of methods that we're using? And so that highlights the idea of formulas, almost what do we use frameworks when we're producing content, the fact that I haven't called the content tells you where I'm sitting. But but the this idea is to think about that, when an anthropologist is writing a piece, if it's just for, again, a journal article, or obviously a longer piece, like a book, that's a different kind of framework, but obviously, for doing shorter pieces, and we're seeing the rise of more blog writing, or even the American Anthropological Association that AAA has, for the past few years, participated in the Op Ed project, where they, I think, pair 10, anthropologists, with different op ed writers, journalists to help train them in writing the shorter pieces. And part of that is what's the formula of an op ed, in how do we write editorial? And so the interesting question, so I'm curious thought about this in terms of the writing process, like when and how can we think about formulas like to give anthropologists or really any social scientists or any academic trying to be more public? What can we draw from and that sense of, it's okay to have a framework, you're not selling your soul in that space? What does it look like?

Emily 24:52

It's okay, yeah. So frameworks and formulas in that sense, they set you a bit free, right? So it's now a bit easier for you to do your job. Definitely journalists that are working on Daily News. That formula, usually like the inverted pyramid kind of thing is how they are able to get that news out so fast, as well as being incredibly skilled and practiced and good writers. But the formula is a big piece of it. And even in longer form journalism, like magazine writing, you see the formula when you're looking for it, how many times has a magazine article, interviewing a celebrity started off with the writer describing the restaurant where they find themselves waiting for the celebrity or like the celebrities, living room. So there's kind of these cliches in a way. Also, the formula is what allows things like the onion to be so funny. So the formula is good on the one hand, that yeah, it can give you this framework that lets you just plug and play to a degree and get your work out there and get it done. On the other hand, like the reader side, it's also then expected when you read the news, you know, either where to jump to or know what to expect. So formulas can be good in that sense. They can also, of course, be bad in that now. It's formulaic, and you are losing maybe opportunities for further nuance, or maybe again, like the journalistic formula, actually, I believe, does not allow for much context and nuance and people's points of view. So some journalists have been pushing back against that you'll see some publications are now they're testing out new formulas, but also, they're just letting writers try to be a little bit more creative. And I think that's really great. It does require more time, and you don't know how it's going to land on the readership how your audience is going to take it. But I think that's great. So take a little bit of formula, but also be open to being creative, and really doing what you think is right for getting the story across in a way that's most genuine, most authentic, that gives the most context. So yeah, I have a bit of a love hate with the formulas that are used, particularly in journalism.

Adam 27:11

Yeah, it's a funny point, because I'm now thinking, of course, I've not done this study. And I'm hope somebody has done this. But, you know, what are the formulaic conventions of ethnographic writing? There certainly are them in terms of having your ethnographic vignettes, but not the similarly like, starting with a story in terms of like, where am I hanging out in southern Peru and a quinoa farm, and there's guinea pigs running across my feet, and I'm fidgeting nervously while waiting, because it's 3am. And I have to get up in a minute to then go check the farm, and it's below freezing. And I only have one, I don't know, pair of pants or something gives you a bit of the way into what's about to happen. But even this is funny, because I think there are these similarities to where we do see, trying to tell a bit of a human story before we get to the bigger point. And so even these ideas in terms of how we can tell stories in ways that will pull people in, hits that the other piece that you were saying to me that when we want to engage audiences like this is something that both journalists and anthropologists struggle with, right? If we want to have more public impact, but anthros might feel like the grass is greener, because oh, they already have a built in audience. But journalists don't, especially as you there's challenges with trust and media, there's people that will immediately are skeptical, because you're trying to like, give me a gotcha question and say, Upsee twist my words or whatever it is, I love to break this side of it down to that it's not like your audience is not a given. Right. And so even the way that you've noted that journalists have been playing with formula, I think reflects this, that either a framework doesn't feel like it's working or something feels stale, or like why are we losing readership? It's not simply because I don't press the media. I mean, that's, that can be for some listeners, but part of it can be I just liked the way that this other online blog tells their stories, you know, and that it feels like it gives me a little bit more context, to your point. Is this reflected in like the rise of the long form journalism? I know, that's been around for a while, but there is the kind of short form versus long for him to so do you see that playing out? Are we seeing formula shifts because of audience needs?

Emily 28:59

Yeah, I'd say we're definitely seeing formula shifts and innovations and just throwing stuff at the wall, seeing what sticks more and more. Because they're having to innovate around the disruption. My research, my master's research was around technological disruption happening to print magazines. And through that, we found that there was a long history of magazines were able to innovate their way out of disruption over and over again, radio, TV, that kind of thing, largely with the help of content. So the type of content that they put out is how they would survive that. So now that is what they're still trying. But it's really not the winning strategy anymore. It was easier when there wasn't an avalanche of content in the form of the internet, although I think it's good that we are innovating and trying new things in terms of content form. I don't think that's going to be the answer won't be enough. But it's still got any innovation in that sense trying new things, I think it's still good, particularly if that content means better representation of marginalized voices. And again, like, even from how the sausage is made on the other side of making sure that you've got that representation from the newsroom, who are the people that are telling these stories are the people also that are assigning these stories and identifying the next story to be to be researched and written about? So I think that that's all really good.

Adam 30:30

That's really important, too, in the question of representation is such an important piece, who's telling the story who's included in the story who's not me, that is something that I think that anthropology has been particularly good at in terms of recognizing also where there are silences in stories, both in terms of who's telling them and what's being told. It's on one level, I think that can often get couched in the context, part of the bigger framework. And that's, I can see why it gets cut out. Because it's also it's confusing to them Be like, what they didn't say was XYZ. And that matters, because the way people dress is related to x, ABC or something. And that takes way more time to say that. But why I'm so interested in the point you said before to that writing succinctly is a skill, right? And being able to say something quickly and take a complex idea and distill it down. That's, I think, one of the most exciting things that journalists can do. And like that idea of how ethnographers can also do that. I agree that I think it's totally doable. It is just a bit of a question of training and orientation. So your short, might be a little bit longer than a typical journalism story, because we do have to add in like a bit of history and a bit of local flavor and a bit of dialogue and XYZ, but I think it's definitely something that that is learnable. And I would love to see more of in that space. Maybe it's like a medium form, not the blog medium, but just medium form. content versus longer. Yes.

Emily 31:39

Yeah. And again, like I think being aware of we think that takes more time, or we think that it is going to take up more space. But adding that context doesn't mean it has to again, that's the challenge. I would put two people both ethnographers journalists, I really think you can put that in and it won't take more time or more space. And I think it's funny to some of those trailblazing media anthropologist Susan Allen, who wrote a book called Media anthropology, she edited it, multiple chapters on that topic of How can anthropologist maybe work more with media was written, I think, in the 90s. And then hypertext, like hyperlinking was pretty new. Cool. And she mentions it in one of her chapters. This is how you could add context as just hyperlink to something else without taking up more space. Of course, nowadays, I think I just distracts now you're on a different webpage, you've lost the reader, I think it's much better if you can try and fit it into the same ecosystem that the person is absorbing the information in. So really just on the page, but it's funny, as we also look now to what's the new technological disruption down the pipeline, obviously, AI and chat GBT and all of those types of things. We're thinking about how we can use them. And it's funny to look back on how we thought we could use in this example, hyperlinks. That is what?

Adam 32:59

Check it out. Hyperlinks, y'all. Whoa, that's so funny, too, because that's a problem I have. I'm like, Oh, that's a cool story. Like, oh, that's a nice looking link. Let me just add a tab. Oh, that's a cool, let me add a tab and I have five tabs. I didn't get through my story yet.

Emily 33:10

Yeah, yeah. I think actually, AI is not that scary for writers maybe yet I've been playing around with it, it doesn't seem as frightening as I thought it would be. And even more. So I think that there is opportunity right here in this nexus point of how how journalists can use ethnographic methods. In an AI sense, okay, there's this thing that I'm doing naturally, as a journalist. Now, I am able to label it in terms of what it is in the discipline of anthropology and ethnography, you can put prompts into chat GPT, let's say and now you don't necessarily have to have the skill and the background of a trained anthropologist, you just need to know a little bit more to help give you context and to help guide you in that direction to help. Like I was saying solve those challenges that you're facing as a journalist using ethnographic methods. And with the right prompts. And knowing about ethnography chat, GBT could help the journalist at least locate some some of those solutions to those challenges a little more quickly.

Adam 34:13

I love that it didn't, it's definitely something that I've been playing with as well, because it's aI provides a really helpful boost in terms of getting a quick understanding of a few sets of topics like what's happening here, or basically what you can say what are ethnographic methods? Or like, how might I apply this thinking to a story around community advocacy or something, and then just get a little bit of a boost? And helping your research before you do your research kind of thing. And so yeah, that way to think about it's less here to replace writing, or replace me as a writer than it is about helping improve the process. One of the pieces that really stood out to me is how do we challenge the idea that advocacy equals bias in journalism, right? So the ideas are supposed to be totally unbiased journalists. And that's a very challenging idea, right? Because a we're humans and we are trying to know we have to tell a story from a particular point and this something that we were talking about before. It's ographers always have wrestled with this. I'm the person telling the story about with alongside these people. What does that mean? What is the power dynamic there? Journalism is like kind of, I mean, it is reckoning with to, it seems within maybe anthropologists are just more comfortable like wringing their hands about it like, Okay, I don't know, man. I'm just like, I know there's a, there's a power imbalance here. I'm not sure what to do about it, I have to tell the story. But I have 85 pages to do it. So maybe at some point, I can kind of say the issue. But how in journalism, you know, if you have less space and less time and deadlines? How do we think about this idea? How do we challenge that that notion? So anyway, I'm couching this as one of the resources that you've helped me think through in terms of what how these two can can kind of think together

Emily 35:38

that notion of advocacy, not necessarily meaning that your bias is actually coming from a conversation I had with Michael McDevitt who, in the think it was the 2000s wrote a chapter called ethnographic journalism. And I was so inspired by it, and then was able to chat with him about this. And so essentially, at the core of why people are apprehensive towards journalists and media outlets, is because they're worried that they're going to get the story wrong. And that's not to say that journalists are gonna get the facts wrong. It's just that the reporters maybe not going to understand the story in the community's own terms. And of course, that's where ethnography has worked really hard to do that. Well, from there, if you take it to, okay, well, how do I make sure that a community feels like I'm understanding this story on their own terms, you can do that in lots of different ways. You know, you can show it in the minutiae of how you interact with someone in an interview, even before the interview, you can show it by just going into a community with an open mind to them telling you what the story would be, rather than going in with with an angle that's been assigned to you. But then beyond that, it's kind of this larger idea of rethinking the objectivity that has long been touted by Jay schools in newsrooms as like the thing, objectivity above all else, it's already changing. So we see, again, like we're talking about this reckoning happening in newsrooms around representation, and making sure that you're including those voices and points of view and who's telling the story and what stories are being told. So that's just by nature, no longer objective. And that's great. That's a really good thing. So already, you're beginning to see that, that sort of moving more towards advocating, but advocating for a group can just mean you're telling their story on their own terms, right, if you have understood a community intimately, and you're able to communicate that succinctly, that's more leaning towards that representation, and getting away from advocating. And that's where it it's that advocating does not necessarily equal bias. That's where you begin to see how representation is actually what's happening here. And obviously, you can make the argument that is a form of bias. But I think that in today's media landscape, you can't say objectivity at all costs is good. Ergo bias is bad. In this new world, I think the representation portion is so important that you can no longer equate it with that negative bias. idea.

Adam 38:23

Yeah, and I think that's super important. And like the challenges that we've seen to that is when New York Times, it was probably them, but then also just a number of news outlets, like when they would cover stories on white supremacy was basically in the idea of like trying to tell an objective story. But then people would say, well, you're you're talking about the human in the story, a little too empathetically. And that's an interesting, you know, criticism of writing and bisque in terms of like, when and where, what's the limit of empathy? Also? I know we can't solve that right here. But, but to your point, like, I'm not like, that's perhaps the extreme side of how do we think about and deal with criticism of an angle of like, how do you tell a story, but it speaks exactly to your point of what we're going for is question of representation. And like, how's the story being told who's telling it and telling a story about a human in a way that doesn't write them as a vile monster, you know, one can do that one may choose not to in the in the guise of saying, Oh, I'm trying to tell a journalistic story. This is how this person describes themselves. ethnographically anthropologist don't typically get in trouble for doing that, because they're telling a bigger contextual story, but in journalism is kind of like, No, you can't do that. And that's an interesting question, because the question of representation gets so much airtime in anthropology, that it's it seems less weird to spend a lot of time with a vile character as it were. Yeah, then journalism doesn't you know, give a a reader just reads one story that short about a group they disagree with. And it's like, well, you didn't just say fu like these are these people are bad, you know, and it's like, that isn't news but then also telling a story is not like saying I agree with or I'm advocating even for right is that I'm representing this person this group as as a newsworthy story for XYZ reasons. It's definitely, I think, an interesting challenge of like how we can be okay with that. And it's a question of trust, like, how do we build trust in media and storytelling? Amongst journalism?

Emily 40:10

That's just it? Yeah. What makes us trust these these professionals? It's essentially, do you feel like they're accurately representing you when they go to then tell your story. And for journalists, again, like it can just be one piece, they can move on, the whole story doesn't have to conclude or make their point. But it's unfair to not represent them, how they see themselves, even for those few sentences where you are describing them. So I think it's just really important that journalists try their best. And these methods are great at it to represent a community again, like on their own terms through their own lens. And that's where, again, the ethnographic methods come into play for how do you get at that, like you're saying, like people with very divergent viewpoints? How do you even begin to understand their point of view? And journalists tend to work in? In polarities, unfortunately. But how do you have group A versus group B, and understand both of their points of view through their own lens, that's where ethnographic methods can really help. And so that's also read the online resource outlines some of these. And

Adam 41:13

so one of the other cool things that you are working on, you know, you've got, you got your Anthro Journal website, where you have been gathering resources in ways for journalists to think about stories, interviews, engagement, more ethnographically. And so I think, like, I'd love to kind of talk about that process, too. And that's, that's a really cool idea, too, in terms of a lot of the, I mean, I don't know if we call advocacy work, but I think it's kind of it's advocating for, you know, both online and workshops that you've done in courses, you've taught to help bring these two areas together again, in a new sexy way that goes beyond systems thinking and design thinking, right? And so let's let's talk about some of those these these things that you've been able to do share?

Emily 41:52

Yeah, so the website Anthro, giorno.org, was that kind of culmination of thinking about this and speaking to people, and then I love your use of the word again, I'm certainly not the first one to try and merge these two. But I am, it would seem the first in a long time, in many years to be resurfacing this idea and saying it has value. First of all, I'll say that the website's got a whole bunch of categories. Again, it jumps off from what are the challenges that journalists face, and then here ethnographic methods that can help with them. So it's got everything from very regular things like you have to find your next story topic to how do you gain and maintain, maintain trust with communities that you report on? And related to that, so how the this resource came together, it was a lot of research, many years of collecting all of this and going through it, going back to people who had written about these topics and research this nexus point of journalism and anthropology and having meetings with them or emailing with them, and just asking them in 30 years later, how do you see this what's changed, or just in general having the opportunity to pick their brain? And then in addition to that, I created a survey where I had social scientists, ex researchers, anthropologists, anthropologists that have done shifted into journalism, I had them take the survey and send me back their suggestions. And the survey is large, it's still on the website, the website is a living document, anyone feel free to give feedback? It's essentially outlining those challenges that journalists are largely facing today. And then what ethnographic methods do you think can help? So that's how it really came together? It was a collective effort and continues to be

Adam 43:29

it's also interesting, because I mean, there is this back and forth of what anthros could also learn from journalists, because one of the things that I find anthropologists have such a challenge with, and this would be probably not unfamiliar to anybody who's listening to this episode, is that we tend to go on and on, you know, in terms of writing, or using perhaps 20 words to say something very simple.

Emily 43:48

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's where like, journalists sometimes maybe don't even recognize this in themselves. But they're so good at taking complex ideas and succinctly putting them on the page quickly. That's a skill that's learned over time. But also, like, it's just an appreciation for language, particularly the English language, there's just so many ways that you can describe something. And there are some that are a little more verbose. And there are some that are a little more succinct, but you can always do it. And I think even I would challenge them, that maybe sometimes they feel like they can't, and they need to cut entire things. But a good writer can do it, they can get that context, and they can fit in the viewpoint of the person that they are writing a story about. And they can do it quickly. I don't think that you have to cut that kind of context. I think context can be given in very few words if you're a good writer. So not only do I think that journalists could challenge themselves to do that, I think that ethnographers could then also challenge themselves to do that. And absolutely, they could learn from journalists in how they do it. Largely though it comes with practice and a little bit It comes with probably the fear of a deadline.

Adam 45:02

Yes. Right.

Emily 45:04

That's something also that I think that maybe anthropologists can learn from journalists, is that idea of journalists wish they could have long lead times like that. Oh my gosh. So in a way, count your blessings. What are you doing with this time, make the most of it, like really just view it as such a bonus in that profession, that ethnography has got so much time that they can go into things and think about things? So yeah, I really value that. I don't know. I think that's like a Be glad for what you have, like by comparison. Yeah. But that's something they could probably learned just in opposition to what journalists are working within.

Adam 45:40

But I would also add to that, to your point that I think this is the website Anthro. Journalists. org is incredibly useful also for anthropologist, because what it can do is help us understand what is this anthropologist do? Well, because that's one of the other challenges a lot of anthros have, because the flip side about this entire conversation is how could anthropologist be more publicly accessible? How could they tell a newsworthy story? How could they put it together in a way that is quick in 200 to 800 words, or whatever it is? That's written in two days? So I think there is an incredible, like cross value in that regard. Yeah,

Emily 46:11

thank you for the positive promotion. And yeah, probably then also, for social scientists, it is a resource that shines a light on some of the specific things that maybe they're forgetting their strengths. And so here they are front and center. If they're so good, that journalism should be pulling from them, then certainly, they're good.

Adam 46:32

So one of the things I was thinking about this interesting for the anthros in the crowd is how to make something newsworthy, and especially like journalism, one on one on the journalists listening. But then if we bring it to the not so journalistically educated, we might see, what does it mean to make something newsworthy?

Emily 46:46

Yeah, so I tend to view this almost like you're playing double dutch, like the skipping ropes, and you have to stand back and like, you end up getting in the rhythm of them. And then you wait for your perfect moment to jump in. And understanding what makes a story newsworthy is like knowing where your opportunity is to jump in. So if your research is on a topic, and you can identify as a new cycle is happening, or as things are coming up, where it might fit in, you're going to have a much higher chance of a publication, picking it up being interested to talk to you related to that, at any point in time, you could reach out to journalists that write on your topic, it's obviously easy to find by lines and find out who's got that beat. And just introduce yourself as an expert, because journalists are always looking particularly in radio and TV looking to call people up that will quickly answer the phone that they know is an expert, that's that is willing to talk to the media. So they'll have kind of a list of people that they'll go back to. And in some academic circles, I don't know, for those who work in academia, you might know like your colleagues that are the ones that are always on the radio are always happy to speak to the journalist anyway. But I think colleges and universities actually really that because it does help get their university name out there. All that to say, so what makes something newsworthy when editors are deciding, like, is this something? Is this a story pitch that I'm going to go ahead with? They're usually putting it through this lens of is it newsworthy? And that might mean? Is it timely? Is it something that happened recently? proximity? So is it something that happened near me, so that's like the local angle. And then there's a third one of celebrity or Rarity, they're the same thing. My celebrity is just a rare, rare person to talk to. And then, of course, conflict or controversy? Those are the ones we know. Well, those are the headlines that we see all the time. So breaking them down a little further. Yeah, if your topic is something that's in the news, now, it's more likely to be talked about, again, and again, usually, journal or publications will jump on something more than once. So if it's in the news today, and you have something that could talk about it tomorrow, or the next day, they'll probably still be interested in it. Then again, recency is related to that, did it just happen? Proximity is probably the most interesting, I personally think because if you can relate it back to where you live, where you've studied, or any affiliation that is close to the media outlet, then they'll be hungry for it. And again, that idea of celebrity or Rarity being similar things celebrity you might not have that as an academic. But rarity, certainly like if there's any aspect of your research, that is something that is rare, then usually that uniqueness of it, that access to it will be really interesting to a media outlet, and conflict or controversy. Hopefully, your research doesn't have too much of that in it. But if maybe it's related to something that wasn't in conflict at the time, and now it is or something like that, or there's a controversy now happening. You could try to hook your research and your work onto that.

Adam 49:54

As I've talked to anthropologists over the years to like the rarity I think is a really important piece that you just brought up there that There is something unique that each of us do it all researchers do it because you're researching the thing that you're researching. You have unique access to us in certain communities, which is an important part. And then the conflict piece is one of those. I don't know, for lack of a better term inevitabilities that no matter how, when you spend your time with people, conflicts will come up. And so there's usually a connection you can also make, even if it's not like the exact thing in terms of challenge or problem, if I'm saying, Okay, I'm getting doing research with quinoa farmers in southern Peru, creating the agro biodiversity market access, but then also, how do we mitigate climate change? It's like, there's a few pieces I might pull from it. There's a story on climate change and food that I could talk about what's happening in Peru, if there's something on hipster new foods, I can talk about quinoa, something about indigenous rights, I can talk about farmers, if it's something about I don't know, NGO power struggles, I can talk about that, too. So even just recognizing that you can go around the web of the story that you're working on. And that any of those things could be a conflict against the NGO is fighting with farmers are keen was fighting soil, but there's ways to like in conflict doesn't have to mean that someone was like fighting with somebody. But that is their attention. And that's something that we narratively do all the time, right. That's what makes any story interesting.

Emily 51:06

Yes. Yeah, yeah. And then related to that. So these are more like, in the moment, an editor's reading a pitch they're putting it through this lens of isn't newsworthy. Beyond that, though, I think it's also important to think about why people will pull news into their lives. And a lot of my research centered around this idea of people will pull it into their lives, if it helps them complete a job like job in air quotes that they need to do. We obviously like lots of different jobs come up in our daily lives. There's this communications theory, called The Four ds of news consumption. And so they list these four primary motivations for consuming news. And they all start with a D. So duty is one where people feel a sense of responsibility or a duty to stay informed. Usually, that's like politics. But some of that is local stuff, too. Then there's drama. So this is what we're talking about, right? Conflict, anything that's going to capture people's attention, because there's a tension or something sensational. But this also sometimes is just because people find it entertaining, or emotionally engaging, then discussion is the other one. This one I personally find most interesting. It's like news that people can then talk about. So if it's something that people would like to have in their back pocket when they're at a cocktail party, or even just at Thanksgiving dinner, or whatever it might be. So I think that's an interesting reason why people will read the news. And diversion is the last one, that's the one that's like tabloids and reading about celebrities. It's just something that gives them an escape or a diversion. But I think that, on top of all of this, my research was around how we pull news into our lives to do the job, or to help us do the job of self identifying. And all of this is like higher level thinking about it. But even if you can think about that, like why would people read about this, if it helps them in their daily lives, do something, then there's a higher chance that audience will pull it into their life. And that's what editors want, right? That's what the media organizations want is for readers to pull their product into their lives to buy their subscription or to land on their website. So yeah, I think that thinking about these things, too, would give you a bit of an edge as someone pitching editors.

Adam 53:18

Right on. I just want to say thanks for chatting with me. So far. In the past, this has been super fun. And I'm excited to have our conversation continue. But I think if we were to wrap ourselves so far, what are three takeaways? The ideas are so three ish, that we want folks listening to be able to take away from this conversation. Yeah,

Emily 53:35

there's some specific aspects on the resource that I'm just super excited about. There's a new way of thinking about how you can find sources and find story ideas using semiotics, specifically, semiotic square. I think that's just really cool. And I'm trying to pilot project that with as many journalists in newsrooms that will let me so I think that's exciting is like new ways of using ethnographic methods in journalism. Then there's just tried and true ways of thinking about the world from ethnography that I think as a media professional, just keeping front of mind the biggest being an open minded approach, and that's easy to say, but when you talk to an anthropologist, they have this ability to like, flick off I guess the closed mindedness, I don't know flick on a switch of open mindedness that is so open minded like way more open minded than what most normal people think of as open minded. So I would just say like, for journalists and media professionals, if you can tap into an open minded approach, throw away the angle, throw away your any expertise you have, if you're a beat reporter, really allow yourself to be completely open to experiencing with fresh eyes, the culture, the community that you're reporting on. And then related to that. Let those communities tell you on there own terms and really listen and understand, get it from their point of view. And then challenge yourself to a be able to write that succinctly put that context in. And then be also challenge yourself to return to sources as many times as your deadline will allow. So that's one thing that I think ethnographers do really well, right, they'll have a key informant, they'll return to them over and over again. But that's again, because they have a lot of often many months that they can go back to people, journalists, maybe you have a deadline of only a few hours, maybe a week, if you're reading a magazine piece, maybe a few months. So really challenge yourself to go back as often as you can. So that's what I would hope the media professional takes away from a conversation for news consumers, though, as well as news producers though but all of us as news consumers, redefine your news, the your traditional concept or the newsrooms, traditional concept of objectivity, and the reverence we have for objectivity at all costs. We see journalists more and more being personal, particularly on social media interacting with their audiences. And I think that is more representative. And I think that empathy is good. And I don't think that is really a bad thing. I don't think that's that bias that we think of in opposition to pure objectivity. So that's for more than US consumers. And then for the anthropologists, I think it's important to the news is just so important in our lives, even if you're not someone who reads the paper every day, it's news communications theory around how it helps define our reality. And you know, like, shared reality. And I think that it just, it has such an impact that if you're an anthropologist, and you can see, there are things that you do that would help journalists, then look to where you can help them learn about it, because journalists probably won't stumble on these methods on their own. Hopefully, my website ends up in the Google search results, high enough. But if you have any ability to help share these ideas with people who are producing news, then go for it. Whether that means that you volunteer to reach out to some local news outfit or offer virtual workshops or pitch schools pitch journalism schools to come in as a guest lecturer, like, just if you're an anthropologist, or an ethnographer, ask yourself like, what can I do? And you'll like you're saying, Actually probably get a lot out of it yourself. And that reflection on your own profession will probably pull out gems, that maybe you forgot strengths that you forgot that you had

Adam 57:38

a read on, I think that's so important. And thank you for breaking that those lectures to break that down in terms of media professionals, and consumers and then anthropologists, because I think that's part of this conversation too, is that actually just defining the parameters through which we can then draw the best tools out for for different groups, and then help both represent and then add value in those different ways. I think that's really helpful. Huge. Thank you, Emily, this has been a fascinating conversation, I've learned a ton. I'm excited to go try some go study methods, some more on the Anthro Journal website, and then see what we could do with them, because it's such a good resource. And so I again, appreciate all the work that you're doing to help me bring these two areas in conversation again, because it's high time that we had another chat. So right now, thanks so much.

Emily 58:16

Yeah, thank you, Adam.

Adam 58:18

All right, a huge thank you once again to Emily Kennedy, for joining me on the podcast today. Thanks for sharing your insights and the exciting potential of anthropology meets journalism. It's been a pleasure chatting with you. So today, we've explored how ethnographic methods can enhance journalism and address the challenges faced by the profession. We've seen that anthropology combined with journalism has the power to transform and improve the way that news is communicating with the world. So as we reflect on this episode, I encourage you to think about how the ideas discussed today resonate with your own lives or society at large. Do you see opportunities for incorporating ethnographic methods into journalism? Or how might this help address challenges that the profession faces and improved news communication? Drop me a line in the comments, or be sure to join us over on the Anthro curious substack blog where we dive even deeper, into anthropological insights and stories. And we have a story from Emily. Alongside this episode, your voice and input are vital in shaping and enriching our podcast community. So I always invite you to chat and get in contact. Now, before we go, I'd also like to suggest a viable resource that Emily talked through, you can check out the website Anthro journal.org, where you can delve deeper into the intersection of anthropology journalism, and learn about a ton of the really cool innovative ways that the fields are coming together. And remember, whether you're a longtime listener or new to the podcast, your support matters. So help us grow by subscribing to the podcast, leaving a review and sharing the episode with someone who will find it thought provoking and inspiring. So thanks so much for joining us today on this Anthro life. stay curious, keep learning and remember, anthropology is around all of us. We'll see you next time. I'm Adam Gamwell.