From Taboo to Understanding: Carol Queen's Advocacy for Sex-Positive Mindset

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Welcome to this Anthrough Life, the
podcast that brings social sciences into your world.

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I'm your host, Adam Gamwell,
and I'm here to take you on

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a journey through the fascinating landscapes of
humanity, culture, and beyond. Now

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in the show, we don't just
observe society from afar, but we plunge

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right in tackling and turning complex theories
into accessible stories. So today we delve

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into an intriguing conversation in world with
esteemed sociologist Carol Queen. From her unique

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insights into the sociological fabric of sexuality
to her groundbreaking work throwing light onto the

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undiscussed areas of society that we need
to talk more about, Carol unveils a

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revolutionary perspective on how we can perceive
and talk about sex. Now, in

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this episode, we're going to be
exploring Carol's fascinating journey into the world of

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sexology and advocacy, how the language
that we use affects our perception of sex

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and sexuality, and what sex positivity
truly means in the scope of personal and

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social change. So why stick around? Well, if that doesn't intrigue you

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already, if you ever wondered about
the untold narratives, things that we don't

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talk about around gender and sexuality and
societal constructs. And if you're open to

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having your perspectives challenged a little bit, this anthwer life is your gateway into

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an uncharted territory of thought, brooking
discussions into what it means to be human

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in this world today. So welcome
or welcome back to the CEO community and

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let's dive into the heart of the
human experience today. Go ahead and subscribe.

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If you have an already, you
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can leave a comment down below if
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podcast because knowledge like humanity is best
shared. So stay tuned. Let's uncover

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the anthropologist in you. So,
you know, I think a question that's

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probably on a lot of people's minds
is is, of course, how does

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one get to become a person that
talks about sex for work? You know,

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this is always something that sex is
probably on many of our minds,

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but we may not talk about it
as much. And so I'd love to

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hear a little bit about you know, we called your superhero origin story,

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you know, how you found your
way into the world of sexology. But

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also, you know in sex positivity, advocacy and all that good stuff,

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Well this is true that in the
you know, high school class where they

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start to lay out careers and have
you say ahead and think about what sort

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of things you might want to major
in college, this was never an option

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given to me, although fortunately I
was already embarked on a lifelong learning process

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by that time. And so I
think, you know, our interests in

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sex and our relation to sex in
general comes from all kinds of places,

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but it's often really close to home. I didn't know until I was in

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my late twenties that my mother was
someone who had been sexually abused when she

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was a young woman. But it
affected her life profoundly, as we know

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a lot about lately, with people
telling their stories post me too, and

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the people who were able to be
heard before that too, of course,

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and that a lot fell into place
for me when I heard that, because

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there was something in my house and
it had something to do with sex,

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and it was hard or impossible to
talk about the stuff. Both my parents

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were impacted, and so I was
like this, this dowdy little adventurer who

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was like, well, what is
all this about? Then? So I

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mean, I realized that people used
to go to juvenile hall for things like

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this, but I decided to try
to read what I could. One of

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my one of my early sex memories
is trying to look up sex words in

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the dictionary and be like, what
are all these these definitions don't make any

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sense? And so that led me
to some exploration, which led me to

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sexual orientation, which led me to
identifying as buy when I was pretty young,

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which led me to the very first
gay studies class at my college,

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back before anybody got credit for a
gay studies class unless your college had one

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of those programs where you know,
wild eye radicals could teach a class and

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some you know, geology professor somewhere
signed off on it. And that led

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me into community and I was under
age, so that led me to co

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founded a gay youth group in the
early mid nineteen seventies, which was extraordinary,

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and we tried to sue the school
district in Eugene, Oregon, but

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the vagaries of the legal system gotten
away. And I was in Eugene when

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Eugene was one of the cities that
the Yenita Bryant Ordinances of the late nineteen

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seventies, went after a gay rights
ordinance that we had just passed and was

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able to overturn it. But I
was the youngest person on the steering committee,

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and I was running the LGBT.
I was doing all that stuff,

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and then AIDS and then AIDS,
so I already was I was rooted in

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this community. I love my boy
pals deeply. They were it seemed all

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at risk. It was a little
hard to parse at first what was going

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on. But I got involved in
that too, and that made me know

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that this stuff wasn't sideline activism.
It needed to be the path that I

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took. So I found out there
was such a thing as sexology and such

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a place as the Institute for advent
Study of Human Sexuality rest in Peace Quirky

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School in San Francisco, and I
came to San Francisco, and then I

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fell into all the communities fell I
thought them out mostly, but San Francisco

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in the late seventies, early eighties, late eighties was such a rich time

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for community formation, really interesting stuff, honestly, And as I get ready

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to write my memoir, I'm like, how do I link all of the

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things you know that I walked through
that I was influenced by, that I

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understood differently once I had met some
people of this sort or that sort,

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and my of course, sexual orientation
got bigger and bigger as I went because

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I found out more things that were
important to me and that that was so

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I'm a street sexologist and a trained
sexologist, and so I've talked about sex

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ever since. I think that that's
that's a wonderful trajectory. And I'm actually

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I'm, you know, super excited. I know where we're a little way

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away from when the memoir comes out, but I'm super excited to get to

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know it when it when it does, because I think there there is such

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an important trajectory that you're tracing there. And one of the questions that can

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came to mind. I was recently
talking with someone that is a kind of

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human connection expert, and there's always
this interesting tension that we, I think

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everyone faces where it's like there's there's
a bit about who I think that I

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am and who I want to express
myself and present in the world, and

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then the kind of social pressures and
you know, moras, norms and things

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that like kind of influence us to
express certain parts of ourselves and not,

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And so I'm curious how you you
know, you talked a little bit about

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this as you're going through your timeline
too. It's like, how how you

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know, especially if folks are kind
of thinking about this for themselves too,

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It's like, how can we give
ourselves the space to kind of think about

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who am I in relationship to the
kind of notions of belonging that we all

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also seek as being kind of social
members of society. Well, that's such

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a good and deep question, and
one of the things that is, you

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know, obviously, I'm living in
twenty twenty three with you and everybody else

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more or less machine, and I
am please because there are days when I

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really feel like I would like to
have access to one, and there are

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days when I feel like I'm living
in one. Because the times that we're

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living in right now. This isn't
part of an answer to your question,

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I promise you, I'm just looping
a little bit to it remind me so

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much of the times when I started
out with the kids in gay youth.

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Who were you know, fifteen to
twenty mainly you know, adolescents, young

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adults not old enough to go to
the gay bar yet but who were having

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to deal with things like getting thrown
out of the house by their parents going

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in, you know, having no
real choice out of being unhoused, but

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to go find an older partner or
who maybe wasn't the best person for them,

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you know, I self harm,
all kinds of things, all kinds

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of things that were not inherent in
those young people that were inherent in the

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air we breathed of the culture.
And so one of the things that was

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the most important then, and it's
the most important thing when I think about

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this whole trajectory, is we needed
to find each other and connect. And

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when I think about all the different
sort of movements and identity support groups and

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this and that and the other that
I've walked through in my decades since then,

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that's why we were all together the
whole time. The whole notion this

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comes from sociology. I'm sure it'll
resonate with you from what you know from

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anthropology. The whole notion that our
identities in the last part of the twentieth

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century especially started to really get affected
by things other than what country of orge

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and our grandparents who were and things
like that, things like sexual orientation,

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things like gender identity. Things like
the ally ship of LGBTQIA, et cetera,

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et cetera, et cetera, made
what it means to connect with other

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people and to be able to think
of yourself in relation to the norms and

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ways of your family, your community
of origin, and so forth super important

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and is probably one of the things
that has made us be all out of

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sync and understanding with one another as
a culture. But it had to happen

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because fifty years ago kids were killing
themselves. Sixty seventy years ago, people

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were getting put in asylums and not
getting let out. You know, this

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is there's a narrative that this is
about. You know, the sexual revolution

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just tweaked everyone out and made everyone
step off the path and they can't find

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their way back. I want people
to understand how cruel the path was.

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People need to understand it in our
history and our lifetime history, and certainly

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in my parents' generations lifetime history.
So virtually everybody who's talking about these issues

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in any way today, there were
people whose lives were permanently and negatively impacted

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by issues of sexual orientation, gender
identity, and relationship choices. Things were

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illegal that we can barely imagine being
illegal now, except people are trying to

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make them illegal again. So high
time machine. I feel like I'm stuck

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right between in two places, and
they're looking a little too similar to each

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other to me for my own comfort. So I hope that that answered some

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of what you said asked me,
because it seems to me that this reaching

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out to other people for support is
crucial for community, for the appropriate partners,

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for Heaven's sake. You know,
you run around and you're like,

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you are my person, and then
turre three years into being married or shocked

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up or whatever you could legally do
and want to do, you start figuring

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out what the person is all about
sexually because it was too personal for them

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to disclose it before you got too
close. And we need to be able

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to talk about this stuff so much
more openly, so much sooner. I

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answered some questions the other day about
should we be putting our sexual fetishis on

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our profiles, and I'm like,
well, if you don't want to have

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super weird days, it would might
maybe it might help give people some info,

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for Heaven's sake. And also when
you disclose, and who knows this

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better than me, because I've been
disclosing for quite a long time now.

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When you just close, you chip
away at the shame that people who can't

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disclose and don't want to hear the
disclosure want us to feel. And shame

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is repressive, right, like them
to feel a shame because I'm sure that

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it's some of them too. I
think that's that's a brilliant point too,

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is that it's one of those the
challenges I was kind of thinking about,

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and uh, I was wanting to
ask you about and nerare which is great.

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So it's like, is this idea
that obviously you know so much,

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you know, I think you're right
too, like to point out one that

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like the typical kind of straight and
narrow path, as it were, it

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has been quite cruel, right,
and like in limiting in the sense of

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what are the acceptable and normative gender
and sexual orientation expressions, you know,

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in quote unquote good society. And
then the interesting thing about that I can

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also you know, I guess I'll
put my sociologist had on for a second

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too. It's right, is that
like anything outside of that norm then is

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labeled deviant, right is as it
somehow is a no no. And like

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even the definition of that right sociologically
tells us something important. It's the name

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of a class. For God's sake, you could take a class called deviance,

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right, yes, right, which
is who doesn't want to take that

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class? You know? But I
think I think this idea too that,

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like you know, the especially in
the United States, I make likes very

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steep in this like still kind of
puritan. We may not talk about it

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as puritan, you know, charms
like of course there's still like the question

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of the Pilgrims and you know,
original old school Thanksgiving, which also whitewashes

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its own story. But just like
these broader ideas of like what are the

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ideals that like quote unquote tell the
story of growing up in the US.

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And obviously to your point, this
is like changed radically and positively over the

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past fifty sixty years. But then
you're right, we're seeing also this interesting

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backlash there too. So I think
I really like what you're saying there too,

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in terms of like being aware of
both what it is that I want

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to share and how to disclose that. So I guess you know, there's

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two things you said there. One
is like knowing how it went to is

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closed, and that's on the other
hand, about chipping away at shame.

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Right, So to me again that
this the kind of puritan normative angle comes

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in and like is a voice of
shame in many ways, right, kind

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of saying this is a no,
no, you shouldn't feel this way or

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shouln't think about that or shouldn't express
it, you know, which you're all

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damaging in their own ways. Right. I guess think about this too,

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like how can we both reckon with
our history and then also chip away at

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that shame right, like choosing I
guess this is disclosure and learning how to

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disclose in ways that feel good to
me or to each individual, a way

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of helping us also rethink our history
as well as chipping away at that shame

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or how do you see that relationship? Well, I think that the history

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piece is relatively little understood around sexuality
and gender issues compared to you know,

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our history with race, our history
with you know, hey, this is

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an empty country, we'll take it, nonsense with slavery, with you know,

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the way immigrants are treated and are
treated, and all of you know

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the mess of the American project.
Right, there's plenty of stuff to dig

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into and to help people understand today
who haven't learned that history much why people

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might be feeling especially exercised about particular
things. And it's more common to be

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able to hear about queer history now
and gendered history now than it was when

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I was a pup. But history
was an extremely important piece of the gay

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rights movement, which is what we
called it then, because we didn't have

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all the letters to put together yet
and think that the queer rights movement,

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which we weren't calling it yet but
we would later because it was easier to

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say than all the letters. Plus
who knows what the next letter is going

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to be. I'm like by a
vowel, But we'll see how it goes.

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Because we know that there is so
much diversity in the world. I

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mean, we know that now some
people knew it then, that there will

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be so there will be a new
rights movement, there will be a new

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visibility movement that will come along.
It's brewing right now somewhere. I just

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haven't heard of it yet, right, So welcome. We'll see you when

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you get here. But that history
was an exit, I said. I

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was in the first gay studies class. What do we do? We studied

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a bunch of history of you could
clearly say that it was gay history,

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the homo file movement in the fifties, stone Wall, et cetera, et

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cetera, and the is it okay
to call Virgina Wolf bisexual or lesbian?

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Yeah, and you know those kinds
of Look, we're sitting here in our

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chairs today and we're looking backwards at
a history that has not been well preserved.

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How many backyard bonfires lost us?
You know, papers that should be

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in the libraries and archives right now, if not published in books, many,

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many, and you know, even
the even people's porno movies from thirty

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years ago wound up getting burned in
the backyard. There's all kinds of missing

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pieces. But the pieces that we
know let us know that we're not the

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first here, that we're not alone
here, that we need to think backwards

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and then we can start to tell
the stories. And that's yeah. Of

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course, what's been happening for the
last fifty sixty seventy years extremely important part

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of these movements. And we've gotten
to the point where mainstream media now,

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if it's progressive enough, we'll throw
us out history pretty regularly. If somebody

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significant to us but not to the
outside mainstream world. Dies they'll get a

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New York Times a bit now and
they never would have before. You know,

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the rest and biopic. We knew
about Resting in the seventies, but

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folks weren't talking about them in the
mainstream. So to your question about the

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people understanding, I mean, I
think there's a there's a person. There's

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a kind of person in America that
doesn't want there to be a messy history

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that wants what we're seeing today in
the way of diversity and activism and progressive

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stuff. They like to call it
woke, and they're not even using the

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word correctly. Come on, people, articulate what you're worried about. For

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God's sake, don't just ah anyway. I'll try not to rant too much

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at you, Adam. It's not
your problem, honestly. But if people

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believe that there has been no mess, they won't think it's important to clean

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up the mess, and they'll think
that the people who are talking about the

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mess are hysterical troublemakers. I mean, it's almost like you know, nine

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year olds cleaning their room, right, It's like, are you in an

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authoritarian household? Or aren't you right? And I think it's you know,

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I started with my mother and her
experiences as a young teenager, and it

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is like that. And it's also
sociological, anthropologic, anthropological, it's political

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science, it's psychology, it's all
of the so called soft sciences that help

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us try to work our way out
of where we're stuck because of all of

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these pieces of art history and the
shame piece. You know, we know,

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we know, it's just not just
sexual orientation and gender identity. It's

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it's race and class too, right, So we're a complicated batch of people

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on this continent, and we're not
the only ones here, and we weren't

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the first ones here. It's complicated. It's layers, right, It's layers

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and layers and layers. And every
time you turn, you know, somebody,

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somebody asked me a question about you
know, you you really talk about

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all these different kinds of things.
I mean, I asked you a question

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about sex, and pretty soon you're
talking about this kind of stuff. I'm

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like, to me, it's like
a faceted jewel. You can turn it

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and turn it and turn it and
turn it, and every time you move

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it, another facet gleams at you
or you know, it's some of this

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is not gleaming stuff when we're trying
to deal with it today, But there's

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always somebody else's story. Yeah,
reflected for sugar, you know when and

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you know, postmodernism was my college
generations foreign language of choice, right,

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and learning the special terms and sort
of letting myself deep into what they meant,

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the idea of postmoderny. I co
edited a book called Promosexuals, and

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it was one of the reasons was
because I was forced to take this class

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and it turned out being so much
more meaningful to me than I expected it

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would. Because I didn't have the
right sexual orientation among my lesbian gay friends.

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Right. I was by I was
pan sexual. I started adding words

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to my sexual orientation. I was
too much, I was extra. And

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that's what I heard from some of
my straight friends back then, and I

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think that there are still some heterosexual
people who feel this way today. It's

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like, well, well, you've
got a community, you've got a sex

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positive movement. What do we have, you know, either let us in,

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let us let us learn what you're
learning, let us drop the shame,

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Like how do you talk to your
parents at Thanksgiving? For Heaven's sake?

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And I just think that we all
do need this. That's part of

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what being in a queer community for
so long and then sort of coming out

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into trying to speak to everyone to
the degree that I potentially could taught me

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is that the kind of way I
talk about shame and identity and things to

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people of any sexual orientation comes from
originally a growing queer movement, a growing

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sort of queer studies mindset that tried
to look at these issues and deep ways

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that once I started to go there, turned out to be extraordinarily meaningful for

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me being okay with being me as
I was in the world. And I'm

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just one sex positive writer. Everybody
has got some contact point to these issues.

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They may not understand that that's what
they've got, but you know,

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there's there's an important Republican in Flora. It's today sitting in the corner fuming

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because he lost his freaking job because
he was a little adventurous and a little

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hypocritical and probably could have been in
a world where he could live and his

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wife could live, provided she really
wanted to be doing all this stuff in

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the first place, a lovely,
pleasure filled life with no shame, no

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hiding and no taking on the other
sides rhetoric in order to put a lid

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on the stuff that they were doing
on the weekends, you know, And

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we don't we don't need that nonsense. We just don't need it. But

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we've got plenty of it right now. And I yeah, you know,

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I'm I'm hoping that a little anthropology
and sociology and sexology will balm some wounds.

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I don't know if we could do
that, but this is this is

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a time for Yeah. No,
I agree, I agree, I mean,

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and I'm hopeful to her. I
mean, like it's it's one of

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those I have yet to make this
T shirt, but I still want to

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make the uh uh you know,
soft skills for a hard world, you

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know that comes you know, yeah, because we need it right. Yeah,

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I'll send you on so we we
can get we can get this moving

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here too. But I agree too, Like, I think that that's such

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an important, uh, I mean, series series of points that that you

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walked us through there that like we
we we have a need for these conversations

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and like we oftentimes you know,
the idea of talking about sex or sexual

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orientation, sexual pleasure. You know
what what moves me? What what's my

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kink? You know? And my
queer is like again that that there's a

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shame aspect of like what does it
feel okay to talk about? But I

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think you're right that everybody has a
connecting point somewhere in here, even if

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it is I mean, if it's
it's heteronormative, you still have a connecting

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point there. You still have a
body. And part of this, too,

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of them is like, how do
I think about pleasure? How do

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I think about you know, pain, consent in all these different spaces?

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And I think that that's extra a
brilliant point too to kind of help just

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to underscore too, is that we
all have a connecting point to this arena,

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to this world, right, we
all participate in it, whether we

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think we do or not, And
that should on the one level, make

325
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a say do I feel ashamed about
how I think about X, Y Z

326
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or feel about this or that or
this person or that person? And if

327
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I do or don't, they should
also then say okay, well hopefully I

328
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do not, But then if I
did, then let's think about that,

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or like, do other people feel
shame if they feel different than I do?

330
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You know, again from a very
human angle, right, Why can't

331
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the congress congress person and their their
partner have a different weekend adventure than than

332
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others, you know? And why
is that worth losing a job for?

333
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It's not if you know, we
say at the end of the day,

334
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that sounds very weird to say someone
loses their job over that, you know,

335
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but then so is the but also
underscoring like why there's such this you

336
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know again these layers, this multifaceted
jewel too, that there's so many angles

337
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in which like there's so many stories
in there that like every time even if

338
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you uncover someone's and say, hey, we're trying to be more positive about

339
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this, like you can see someone
else being concerned or negative again it and

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it's and it's I think you noted
too. It's like some people may not

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want this kind of conversations to move
forward, but at the same time,

342
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it's more like more to do I
suspect with their own shame and their perspection

343
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of like what the world needs to
be an Xbox nothing, nothing, Nintendo

344
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but this box yeah versus another.
And if it's not shame per se,

345
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it's a kind of social control,
right, It's it's a kind of it's

346
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like, what's the what's the overarching
story that you tell yourself? What is

347
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sex for? You know? What
are what is partnership for? What are

348
00:25:47.839 --> 00:25:52.079
what are women for? You know? There those It's kind of going to

349
00:25:52.079 --> 00:25:57.240
the Supreme Court again pretty soon,
that last question, because the whole post

350
00:25:57.319 --> 00:26:07.240
Row reproductive rights nightmare going on at
the moment and really illustrating that there there

351
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isn't any one way that this stuff
is going to get solved, at least

352
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not in the short term, because
there are sociologically different spaces where people learn

353
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everything, learn the story, have
to escape if that's not where they're at

354
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personally, or have to find the
kind of support that they need. Still

355
00:26:30.160 --> 00:26:36.000
probably not safe there in many cases, and you know, what, what

356
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are we all doing here? You
know, if it's if it's a set

357
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of religious notions, okay, but
not everybody is religious that way as those

358
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where where do we see the options
for identity? You know, really budding

359
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into firmly political issues, control issues, is legal stuff. It's it's an

360
00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:07.440
extraordinary time because all this stuff is
being said out loud right now. You

361
00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:11.079
know. It made me realize the
last couple of few years, Oh,

362
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the changes that I thought we had
seen in society were were real, are

363
00:27:15.640 --> 00:27:19.680
real, but they're partial. And
the things that I saw hurting my friends

364
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when we were teenagers, and who
I knew hurt my predecessor queers before I

365
00:27:26.680 --> 00:27:30.480
was born, none of that went
away, none of it. And it's

366
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global. It's all over the place. So if anybody was thinking, well

367
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this is rough these days, but
I'll go somewhere else, it'll be there.

368
00:27:41.079 --> 00:27:44.960
So it's kind of existential. No, it's EN's a good point.

369
00:27:45.039 --> 00:27:48.559
I mean it's both is yeah,
global, and also then again like still

370
00:27:48.559 --> 00:27:51.599
comes back to each each one of
us too, and then it's like you

371
00:27:51.720 --> 00:27:53.799
kind of can't escape it, right
because super individual is part it's part of

372
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being human. Right. Yeah.
I think that's that's such an interesting challenge

373
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too, because it's like, and
I appreciate that the questions you're asking there

374
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in terms of like we also it
involves us asking about the uncomfortable but also

375
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theoretically should be very comfortable, questions
of like what are bodies for? And

376
00:28:08.559 --> 00:28:11.279
like why do we why do we
pair bond? And you know what it's

377
00:28:11.279 --> 00:28:15.319
sex for? And and it's funny
because I mean all those things too.

378
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It's like then my brain of course
is saying, well, there's a lot

379
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of different answers to those questions,
but that's that's that's the point too,

380
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right, And like are we you
know, are we providing space to have

381
00:28:23.640 --> 00:28:30.200
more than one answer be like socially
acceptable, right? And I think it's

382
00:28:30.200 --> 00:28:32.920
like interesting too because you know you're
right to it, and it is challenging

383
00:28:32.960 --> 00:28:36.680
to kind of both see the power
of protest and movements over time and to

384
00:28:36.759 --> 00:28:41.319
see more rights and more conversations enter
into the public parlance and then see some

385
00:28:41.400 --> 00:28:44.240
of those get fought against it and
kind and push back against different ones.

386
00:28:44.480 --> 00:28:45.759
So it does feel like we're kind
of going back and forth literally, like

387
00:28:45.799 --> 00:28:49.119
you know, a wave in an
ocean, and then at the same time

388
00:28:49.160 --> 00:28:52.880
too that the same questions get asked, but then we're still kind of we're

389
00:28:52.920 --> 00:28:56.519
in a new place and we do
have new allies and new sets of conversations

390
00:28:56.559 --> 00:29:00.839
happening too. So it is this
interesting like they're there will be an evan

391
00:29:00.920 --> 00:29:03.559
flow, but at the same time, like the river is not the same

392
00:29:03.599 --> 00:29:07.119
exact river, and it's it's interesting
to think about that too, because it's

393
00:29:07.119 --> 00:29:11.519
like even obviously with with your work, and I think What's what's really exciting

394
00:29:11.559 --> 00:29:17.319
too is like you you know,
have published a lot of really interesting work

395
00:29:17.359 --> 00:29:19.119
that's like literally you know, writing
the book on thinking about sex and pleasure

396
00:29:19.119 --> 00:29:22.960
and how can we ask these kinds
of questions you know, doing it I

397
00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:26.200
think through a very fun way too. I mean, like, you know,

398
00:29:26.680 --> 00:29:29.839
I definitely want to get into like
both the like the uh work with

399
00:29:29.880 --> 00:29:33.440
the museum of the historic Museum of
of is historic vibrators, I should say,

400
00:29:33.759 --> 00:29:37.519
the anti vibrated museum, right,
the antique vibrated Museum, yes,

401
00:29:37.960 --> 00:29:41.680
and and that idea even like of
course why we call sex toys toys?

402
00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:45.680
And the idea of playing as part
of this this question, I think it's

403
00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:48.519
worth exploring. And it's like,
actually I'm wondering about the show. This

404
00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:51.400
is like this is like a sort
of left turn, but it's still you

405
00:29:51.400 --> 00:29:52.839
know, they get still tracks with
what we're saying here too. It is

406
00:29:52.880 --> 00:29:56.319
that like even these ideas right,
like are we are we okay talking about

407
00:29:56.400 --> 00:30:02.799
play and toys or should this be
a serious endeavor? This is you know,

408
00:30:03.519 --> 00:30:07.160
you know, what's the spaces even
vocabulary is how we talk about the

409
00:30:07.599 --> 00:30:11.279
both devices and actions around sex.
You know, I think is really interesting

410
00:30:11.319 --> 00:30:14.680
too, So I'm curious your take
on this idea too, of like,

411
00:30:15.319 --> 00:30:18.880
how did these pieces and language kind
of play into this, you know play.

412
00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:22.759
To my knowledge, the notion of
a sex toy came to us in

413
00:30:22.799 --> 00:30:26.119
the nineteen seventies, and that's not
too surprising because there's lots of kinds of

414
00:30:26.160 --> 00:30:32.359
play that were going on there,
a lot of serious nonsense as well nonsense.

415
00:30:32.400 --> 00:30:36.480
There's a lot of serious great activism, a lot of need to stand

416
00:30:36.559 --> 00:30:41.279
up and be activists, as is
true today, but in like some of

417
00:30:41.319 --> 00:30:47.279
the exact same reasons, except just
a slight shift othery, like there they

418
00:30:47.359 --> 00:30:51.279
rhyme, but there there's one syllable
and sort of different from then to now.

419
00:30:51.759 --> 00:30:55.440
But what I think, when I
think, really moved the people who

420
00:30:55.480 --> 00:30:59.200
started using the term sex toy.
And I'm sure Jony Blank, who found

421
00:30:59.200 --> 00:31:03.079
a Good Vibrations one of those people, but I don't know that she invented

422
00:31:03.079 --> 00:31:04.599
it herself. I think it was
one of those things that kind of bubbled

423
00:31:04.640 --> 00:31:10.119
up. But you know what they
were called before that was marital aids right

424
00:31:11.000 --> 00:31:14.960
or in the in the in the
trade sometimes we just said rubber goods,

425
00:31:17.480 --> 00:31:21.519
and which could mean a lot of
different things, But marital aids, of

426
00:31:21.599 --> 00:31:26.920
course, implied that you were married
and could get married, That you were

427
00:31:27.039 --> 00:31:32.599
married, that you wanted to get
married, that the that the sex life

428
00:31:32.640 --> 00:31:36.720
that you were having was insufficient in
various kinds of ways, and you could

429
00:31:36.880 --> 00:31:40.240
fix that with a thing. You
know, there's a tool for that.

430
00:31:40.759 --> 00:31:44.680
They were tools in a certain kind
of way, but it was in a

431
00:31:44.799 --> 00:31:49.480
very gender kind of specific way.
If you if you scratch the surface of

432
00:31:49.519 --> 00:31:57.799
that, it's generally, you know, wives weren't having orgasms. Why weren't

433
00:31:57.839 --> 00:32:02.119
they? Well, there was they
needed a little something extra clitoral stimulation.

434
00:32:02.279 --> 00:32:10.960
Generally, people did not really know
what discussed a lot that the glitterism add

435
00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:15.839
of the penis develops from the vacame
tissue. Therefore, we all know a

436
00:32:15.880 --> 00:32:21.319
little bit more about each other's bodies
than we might think we do. You

437
00:32:21.359 --> 00:32:23.319
know, those men and women are
opposite stuff. If you if you look

438
00:32:23.359 --> 00:32:27.359
through the Sex and Pleasure Book,
you'll notice that early on I had a

439
00:32:27.359 --> 00:32:30.400
big rant about that. It's like, we are not opposites. We can

440
00:32:30.759 --> 00:32:36.119
have our hearts transplanted from one to
the other. There it's you've got to

441
00:32:36.200 --> 00:32:43.319
use more complicated language than we're opposite
also we know now they're more than two

442
00:32:43.480 --> 00:32:46.799
genders, so that just screws up
the notion of opposite altogether. It turns

443
00:32:46.839 --> 00:32:52.640
it into an awesome geometric situation of
some kind that we don't really have proper

444
00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:58.599
language for yet, so we have
to look first at the You know,

445
00:32:58.720 --> 00:33:02.279
it was not serving every buddy to
think that what we need is we need

446
00:33:02.319 --> 00:33:08.240
a penis extender to help the missus
have a happy sex life with the mister.

447
00:33:08.680 --> 00:33:13.799
It's so much more than that.
And I don't think it's very surprising

448
00:33:13.839 --> 00:33:16.640
at all that this was the era
that the queer rights movement really came out

449
00:33:16.799 --> 00:33:23.160
from under and became quite joyful,
at least in the places that it felt

450
00:33:23.200 --> 00:33:29.000
safe to do so and could do
so. And everybody was having fun with

451
00:33:29.079 --> 00:33:31.680
everything if they were in this sexual
space. Not everyone was, of course,

452
00:33:32.079 --> 00:33:35.960
but that's one of the things that
Joni Blake, who started Goodvies,

453
00:33:36.039 --> 00:33:42.039
wanted to do. She wanted to
make available information which was missing so missing

454
00:33:42.079 --> 00:33:45.799
from people's lives. You know,
if you had sex education, it wasn't

455
00:33:45.799 --> 00:33:47.960
about education about having sex. It's
not about that today either. It's about

456
00:33:49.160 --> 00:33:52.039
oh, don't do all these things. Your life will invariably change for the

457
00:33:52.079 --> 00:33:59.079
worse. So those things needed to
happen. This pleasure, this is why

458
00:33:59.119 --> 00:34:01.720
sex positivity rose up out of that
time. Really, the notion of sex

459
00:34:01.759 --> 00:34:12.440
positivity. We needed it to help
be a baseline for the changes that sex

460
00:34:12.519 --> 00:34:19.239
as problem left people stuck it.
We needed to have sexist opportunity, sexes,

461
00:34:20.159 --> 00:34:25.480
fun and play. Sex is pleasure, grapple with are you worthy of

462
00:34:25.559 --> 00:34:30.199
pleasure? Yeah? Yeah you are. And I don't think it's actually any

463
00:34:30.239 --> 00:34:37.320
surprise that our cuisine got more varied, diverse, and delectable during that same

464
00:34:37.360 --> 00:34:42.400
timeframe. I'm like, hey,
Alice Waters in Chapanice, we don't acknowledge

465
00:34:42.440 --> 00:34:47.199
you in the sex world really particularly, but you know what pleasure was on

466
00:34:47.280 --> 00:34:52.400
the map by the nineteen seventies and
a way that it really hadn't before,

467
00:34:52.159 --> 00:34:57.320
at least except for super richrojet city
people who got to have the pleasure and

468
00:34:57.400 --> 00:35:01.119
when nobody else even got to acknowledge
it. So that but then also what

469
00:35:01.239 --> 00:35:07.079
it meant? What does it mean
to play? You know, it's not

470
00:35:07.159 --> 00:35:12.280
the same as child's play, No
it isn't, But it also pulls from

471
00:35:12.320 --> 00:35:16.440
some of the what's possible? How
can we how can we connect? How

472
00:35:16.440 --> 00:35:20.960
can we act. What roles do
we assume? Do we want to switch

473
00:35:21.000 --> 00:35:24.360
that up? What gendered roles make
a difference? Do we want to switch

474
00:35:24.400 --> 00:35:30.280
those up? There are a lot
of fun questions to ask when you step

475
00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:36.000
into that realm that are practically inconceivable
if you're not in that room. If

476
00:35:36.039 --> 00:35:38.920
it's a problem that isn't working,
you know, the hydraulics are not working

477
00:35:38.920 --> 00:35:46.119
properly. That's not a fun floor
to start climbing from. It's you could

478
00:35:46.159 --> 00:35:51.119
get to fun from there, but
it doesn't start out feeling fun. Right,

479
00:35:51.159 --> 00:35:54.880
You've got You've got a more complicated
exploration to do if that's how you

480
00:35:54.960 --> 00:36:00.559
start. Whereas I want to I
want to try more things to feel more

481
00:36:00.599 --> 00:36:02.039
fun. I want to know what
it feels like to do this, that

482
00:36:02.119 --> 00:36:06.400
and the other thing. What doesn't
work, asn't even feel like? How

483
00:36:06.440 --> 00:36:08.400
well I know and I have one? Well, there's a way to find

484
00:36:08.400 --> 00:36:14.880
out. So those things flowed into
the way we think about partnering, the

485
00:36:14.880 --> 00:36:19.199
way we think about play, the
way the way we understand masturbation and its

486
00:36:19.280 --> 00:36:23.719
role as toys. Of course,
and then the Vibrator Museum is all And

487
00:36:23.800 --> 00:36:28.920
this didn't just happen in the nineteen
seventies. It wasn't just a radical idea

488
00:36:28.960 --> 00:36:32.519
that summer A few people had and
then pretty soon there were vibrators all over

489
00:36:32.519 --> 00:36:37.239
the place. No, your great
great grandma had a vibrator. Now did

490
00:36:37.280 --> 00:36:38.880
she know to put it on her
clutters? We will never know the answer

491
00:36:38.920 --> 00:36:42.840
to that, because those were some
of the letters that got burned in the

492
00:36:42.840 --> 00:36:49.800
back and the big iron bucket in
the backyard. We don't know how most

493
00:36:49.960 --> 00:36:54.639
people experienced and understood those items,
but we know they were plenty in.

494
00:36:55.400 --> 00:36:59.679
My favorite statistic of possibly all time, and I'm a sociologist, so I've

495
00:36:59.679 --> 00:37:05.679
heard a lot of statistics. In
twenty seventeen, there were more vibrators and

496
00:37:06.079 --> 00:37:13.280
US homes than there were electric toasters. Fantastic. That is not statistic,

497
00:37:13.360 --> 00:37:16.360
and most people expect that's true.
That is true, you know, and

498
00:37:16.400 --> 00:37:22.519
they were they were sold as they
were sold as health implements. But also

499
00:37:22.239 --> 00:37:28.360
my favorite ad from that time for
vibrators, it says, almost like a

500
00:37:28.400 --> 00:37:34.400
miracle, is the healing power of
vibration when rightly applied. Hell yeah,

501
00:37:35.559 --> 00:37:42.840
I need like little logo jingle I
agree with, so true, so true.

502
00:37:42.920 --> 00:37:45.519
No, I love that. That's
like a it's a wonderful advertisement and

503
00:37:45.719 --> 00:37:49.559
its two points, so such a
telling notion. This reminds me of it

504
00:37:49.639 --> 00:37:52.840
sounds like my uh my yoga studio
too. It's always about like, you

505
00:37:52.840 --> 00:37:53.840
know, you got to get the
right vibration. You know, that's that's

506
00:37:53.920 --> 00:37:57.519
that's how you actually release and you
know, let healing. And it's like

507
00:37:57.559 --> 00:38:00.000
there you go, see you got
a gizm for a vibrator right there too.

508
00:38:00.239 --> 00:38:02.840
I don't even know that. We
don't talk much about Wilhelm Reich anymore,

509
00:38:02.960 --> 00:38:08.079
but he was a radical thinker,
just pre Nazi, and then he

510
00:38:08.119 --> 00:38:15.880
had a split courses that happened a
lot back then, and he came to

511
00:38:15.920 --> 00:38:20.079
the United States and thought even more
radically. And you know, people thought

512
00:38:20.079 --> 00:38:23.480
he was so radical, he was
a nutball. But you start thinking about

513
00:38:23.480 --> 00:38:29.440
the way he talked about people experiencing
life in their bodies, sexuality in their

514
00:38:29.480 --> 00:38:35.880
bodies, sexual blocks. You can
find therapists who work with that stuff today

515
00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:40.320
and helpfully so. And you know, since we're social science people, I'll

516
00:38:40.360 --> 00:38:46.119
just also mention that he wrote the
mass psychology Fascism, which suggests that a

517
00:38:46.239 --> 00:38:53.159
state or culture that controls our sexuality
can control its populous completely. Now,

518
00:38:53.199 --> 00:38:55.239
I don't know if that's true,
because we haven't gotten all the way there.

519
00:38:57.360 --> 00:39:00.639
But I feel like other people that
we see here and there, other

520
00:39:00.679 --> 00:39:04.760
people are checking that book out from
the library too, I think, or

521
00:39:04.880 --> 00:39:10.320
are are they? I think more
of us? Maybe? Should? I

522
00:39:10.320 --> 00:39:15.039
think? That's that's a fascinating point, yes, right, I mean also

523
00:39:15.280 --> 00:39:17.719
meaningly that has that has a very
uh that has very a title that says

524
00:39:17.760 --> 00:39:21.000
we need to check this book out
right now. But also if they're linking

525
00:39:21.039 --> 00:39:23.000
that also to sexuality, like that's
a really interesting and important point too to

526
00:39:23.039 --> 00:39:28.400
recognize, right that, like to
bring our sociocultural lens also into body right,

527
00:39:28.400 --> 00:39:31.320
because of course this is like how
how one can express And I really

528
00:39:31.639 --> 00:39:36.880
you know, I appreciate the walking
us through so this this kind of history

529
00:39:36.880 --> 00:39:40.960
here of both like the the story
of the vibrator, but then in relationship

530
00:39:40.960 --> 00:39:44.519
to these other questions, right,
the part of the history we went through,

531
00:39:44.519 --> 00:39:45.679
you know, but like but just
like the other questions of again,

532
00:39:45.719 --> 00:39:49.079
like how do we think about sex's
opportunity as play? And I think like

533
00:39:49.079 --> 00:39:53.159
even as you noted that where we
saw sex positivity as a movement in mentality

534
00:39:53.280 --> 00:39:58.199
and framework emerge also as this from
this time. And this is something that

535
00:39:58.239 --> 00:40:00.400
you know, I've I've always drawn
inspiration from Dan Savage from uh, you

536
00:40:00.400 --> 00:40:05.079
know, the love columnist Savage Love. You know, that's been like,

537
00:40:05.519 --> 00:40:07.960
you know, a very good and
accessible author to people of all of all

538
00:40:08.039 --> 00:40:10.599
you know, sexual orientations and gender
walks. You know, people may think

539
00:40:10.639 --> 00:40:13.840
it's it's like, oh, it's
a quer news letter, but it's actually

540
00:40:13.880 --> 00:40:16.440
like it can speak to so many, to everybody really, and that's like

541
00:40:16.480 --> 00:40:21.079
the power of like good good love
columns or you know, sexology too,

542
00:40:21.159 --> 00:40:22.880
or I can do this kind of
you know, our work here too.

543
00:40:22.920 --> 00:40:27.920
Is that like again, thinking and
talking about sex is not like it's not

544
00:40:28.239 --> 00:40:30.400
just for one group of people,
right is That's something that we all have

545
00:40:30.480 --> 00:40:32.719
to think with And something that that
stuck with me that you know that Dan

546
00:40:32.719 --> 00:40:37.119
Savwich is in abound talked about too, is that this idea that when trying

547
00:40:37.159 --> 00:40:39.559
to figure out, you know,
the kind of sexual positivity and like working

548
00:40:40.039 --> 00:40:44.440
in opening these spaces up, especially
in the in the seventies and eighties,

549
00:40:45.519 --> 00:40:47.079
was around this idea of like figuring
out what works right and how do how

550
00:40:47.119 --> 00:40:51.000
do I ask those questions? You
know, and so oftentimes he was saying,

551
00:40:51.039 --> 00:40:52.280
you know, it's like, well, if you are told that sex

552
00:40:52.320 --> 00:40:55.519
works way X, which is being
as plus vagina and that's it, then

553
00:40:55.679 --> 00:40:59.079
even that is not clear of totally
how that might work if you've never done

554
00:40:59.119 --> 00:41:00.719
that before. But then obviously if
you're bringing in different kinds of partners,

555
00:41:00.760 --> 00:41:04.840
different kinds of materials, objects,
and different things, like what goes where

556
00:41:04.840 --> 00:41:07.800
and how is a different question.
It's not just a question of like X

557
00:41:07.079 --> 00:41:13.239
goes into why, and that's a
it can be a profoundly empowering question right

558
00:41:13.480 --> 00:41:15.760
to kind of say what do I
want to do with these? How does

559
00:41:15.800 --> 00:41:17.119
this? How should this work?
How can that work? And so to

560
00:41:17.159 --> 00:41:21.840
your point, like I think that
that's a really interesting thing to think about,

561
00:41:21.840 --> 00:41:23.920
and so I'm curious as we kind
of like move ourselves into today.

562
00:41:23.920 --> 00:41:28.079
Also, it's like your your work
with sex positivity too, and like how

563
00:41:28.079 --> 00:41:30.599
do we help bring those conversations out, Like were some of the education kind

564
00:41:30.599 --> 00:41:34.280
of work that you do. Obviously
the books which I'm definitely gonna link up

565
00:41:34.320 --> 00:41:37.239
in our show notes for folks to
check out as well Good Vibes also as

566
00:41:37.280 --> 00:41:39.400
a store and educational resource. But
I'm kind of curious to think about this,

567
00:41:39.559 --> 00:41:44.360
like how these pieces play together as
it work with you in terms of

568
00:41:44.360 --> 00:41:49.039
like bringing sex positivity as a framework
to help, you know, teach empower

569
00:41:49.159 --> 00:41:53.280
share with folks today. Well,
one piece of it, of course is

570
00:41:54.000 --> 00:42:00.519
you. You went right to It's
like when we when we define sex in

571
00:42:00.559 --> 00:42:04.760
a really limited way that is not
only limiting in terms of the different kinds

572
00:42:04.760 --> 00:42:07.639
of things that we can imagine to
try or feel that we have permission to

573
00:42:07.679 --> 00:42:12.280
try the things that might need to
be negotiated in ways that feel painful and

574
00:42:12.280 --> 00:42:15.760
frightening to us, So we don't
even try to start with partners and things

575
00:42:15.800 --> 00:42:19.840
like that. Those those sex positivity
touches all of that with its ideas,

576
00:42:19.880 --> 00:42:24.800
of course, but also just it
just cuts diversity off it then I'm not

577
00:42:24.840 --> 00:42:28.719
even going to I'm not even going
to say at the knees, because it

578
00:42:28.760 --> 00:42:32.400
cuts it off. It cuts it
off everywhere. It cuts it off everywhere,

579
00:42:34.440 --> 00:42:40.480
because the way we can imagine,
you know, experiencing the fatality of

580
00:42:40.519 --> 00:42:50.920
our bodies that we talk about as
sexual or erotic, there's essentially no end

581
00:42:51.119 --> 00:42:55.480
to the different ways that our experience
can be infused by that, at least

582
00:42:55.519 --> 00:43:00.400
in part. I mean, I
think I think back to the nineties and

583
00:43:00.559 --> 00:43:06.800
the famous phrase I did not have
sex with that woman. And I've been

584
00:43:06.800 --> 00:43:08.679
talking about this for, you know, twenty five years now, and what

585
00:43:08.760 --> 00:43:15.280
I say is, I bet she
thought she had sex with you. And

586
00:43:15.400 --> 00:43:22.039
shout out to one of our heroes
of the revolution, Monica Lewinsky, because

587
00:43:22.880 --> 00:43:29.760
she took that nonsense and had to
make a life that worked for her.

588
00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:32.679
And you know, I hope every
single day that she's having a wonderful,

589
00:43:32.719 --> 00:43:38.719
wonderful life because geez. And then
a friend of mine got a Christina wonderful

590
00:43:38.760 --> 00:43:44.599
writer wrote an essay of that satter
are we having sex now or what?

591
00:43:44.960 --> 00:43:50.639
People didn't even People either didn't even
know if the fun stuff extended to that

592
00:43:50.760 --> 00:43:52.280
doubt. People are like, do
we have a fetish? I'm not sure

593
00:43:52.280 --> 00:43:55.360
if I have a fetish, And
it's like, you know, if it

594
00:43:55.360 --> 00:43:58.760
makes you feel sexier to feel like
you have a fetish, I think you

595
00:43:58.800 --> 00:44:02.320
should embrace that fetish. But I
don't know that that's the most important question.

596
00:44:02.400 --> 00:44:07.039
The most important question is does your
sex life touch what it needs to

597
00:44:07.199 --> 00:44:10.920
in you as a human and as
a soul and feed you You get pleasure,

598
00:44:10.920 --> 00:44:15.519
et cetera. So sex positivity,
you know, there's there's a couple

599
00:44:15.519 --> 00:44:20.400
of kinds. There's a couple of
ways to talk about sex positivity. And

600
00:44:20.559 --> 00:44:23.199
I've been talking about it for years
and years. It was a hugely influential

601
00:44:23.239 --> 00:44:28.159
idea for me when I was at
the Institute for event Study of Human Sexuality,

602
00:44:28.199 --> 00:44:30.760
and I've been writing about it for
all that time, over thirty years.

603
00:44:31.239 --> 00:44:36.280
But the thing is that what it
means to many people now is who

604
00:44:36.360 --> 00:44:37.559
I love sex. I just love
it. I love it. I'm sex

605
00:44:37.639 --> 00:44:40.559
positive. I have a lot of
sex. I have all the sex,

606
00:44:40.760 --> 00:44:45.800
I have all the kinds of sex. You're not sex positive if you won't

607
00:44:45.840 --> 00:44:50.159
do this with me, Like,
wait a minute, sex positivity is not

608
00:44:50.599 --> 00:44:55.559
a form of coercion. Don't even
don't even with that. People. You

609
00:44:55.599 --> 00:44:59.719
know, if you were really sex
positive, you'd open our relationship, you'd

610
00:44:59.760 --> 00:45:01.480
let me tie you up, you
let me spank you, you get a

611
00:45:01.480 --> 00:45:07.239
bigger dildo. No, oh no, that's not what it means. Embracing

612
00:45:07.320 --> 00:45:13.920
pleasure in sex is perfectly appropriate to
talk about as part of sex positivity.

613
00:45:14.440 --> 00:45:19.119
But sex positivity is the opposite of
sex negativity. I knew that because I

614
00:45:19.199 --> 00:45:23.320
knew what homophobia meant, and we
always had to put quotes around heterophobia because

615
00:45:23.320 --> 00:45:30.239
there weren't enough people frightened and tweaked
out about heterosexuality that heterosexuals walking down the

616
00:45:30.239 --> 00:45:35.719
street had to feel worried. I
mean, I actually don't think that in

617
00:45:35.760 --> 00:45:39.239
the main, that is still a
thing. So the idea that we need

618
00:45:39.280 --> 00:45:45.599
to take what our diversity is as
sexual people, how many different ways there

619
00:45:45.599 --> 00:45:51.079
are to be sexual, including being
asexual, and all the ace spectrum insights

620
00:45:51.079 --> 00:45:54.280
that we've had in the last decade
or so from especially younger generations coming up

621
00:45:54.320 --> 00:45:59.960
saying that stuff doesn't explain it well
enough for us. We need some more

622
00:46:00.119 --> 00:46:02.079
language, we need some more thoughts
about this, And I'm like, thank

623
00:46:02.119 --> 00:46:07.400
you. I think I just shared
an idea about that with somebody yesterday who

624
00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:09.440
went, wait, that's exactly what
that person said to me. I'm like,

625
00:46:10.480 --> 00:46:14.519
yeah, apparently it's a thing,
and it's probably been a thing our

626
00:46:14.519 --> 00:46:16.159
whole lives, and we just didn't
have the language yet. That's why I'm

627
00:46:16.599 --> 00:46:22.079
I'm waiting to hear what new letter
will get added to the LGBTIQA et cetera,

628
00:46:22.119 --> 00:46:27.519
et cetera acronym, because there will
be new insights for all of us

629
00:46:27.760 --> 00:46:30.840
living in all the kinds of bodies
and all the kinds of sexual orientations and

630
00:46:30.880 --> 00:46:36.960
general identities. There always is.
We have these profound links that we can

631
00:46:37.039 --> 00:46:38.440
share if we're up for it,
if we are into it, and if

632
00:46:38.440 --> 00:46:43.239
we're not too full of shame or
fear a hate to do that. So

633
00:46:43.480 --> 00:46:50.440
it's sex positivity isn't just about pleasure. It's about difference. It's about rights

634
00:46:50.559 --> 00:46:57.000
and how we can communicate, how
we get service if we need service from

635
00:46:57.000 --> 00:47:00.440
a doctor, from a lawyer,
from a you know, what's the legal

636
00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:07.079
What can't we teach about in school? What are the ideas that people walk

637
00:47:07.159 --> 00:47:12.239
around with their whole lives that make
us treat each other poorly around this set

638
00:47:12.280 --> 00:47:17.039
of issues? How could we make
a more sex positive world? So you

639
00:47:17.079 --> 00:47:22.119
can see that through line too from
the last many decades. But you can

640
00:47:22.159 --> 00:47:28.079
also see this idea that the drops
out all that social consciousness stuff, all

641
00:47:28.079 --> 00:47:34.920
that sociology and anthropology and just leaves
the Oh my god, I'm so grateful

642
00:47:35.000 --> 00:47:39.880
not to have to feel terrible for
wanting sexual contact. And of course that

643
00:47:40.079 --> 00:47:45.480
definition is not just appealing to people, it's necessary in the same way that

644
00:47:45.519 --> 00:47:52.519
fighting homophobiaan gay pride was in that
specific sexual orientation space. So the last

645
00:47:52.519 --> 00:47:54.599
thing that I'll say about that unless
you want to know, delve some more

646
00:47:54.599 --> 00:48:00.000
into this stuff, because this stuff
is I could talk for one hundred years

647
00:48:00.159 --> 00:48:02.639
about this stuff. This My ex
girlfriend said, I could see if you

648
00:48:02.960 --> 00:48:07.000
if sex was your job. I
could see if you did it for fun,

649
00:48:07.079 --> 00:48:10.519
but you you it's everything. I'm
like, it's a freaking faceted jewel.

650
00:48:10.920 --> 00:48:15.679
It's not one thing, it's so
many things. It's so interesting.

651
00:48:15.840 --> 00:48:20.760
I just I just want people to
be like sex, it's amazing whether or

652
00:48:20.840 --> 00:48:24.719
not they have sex. That's not
required. You could be a sexual and

653
00:48:24.840 --> 00:48:30.880
sex positive. You can be very
very sexual and not very sex positive and

654
00:48:30.039 --> 00:48:36.039
kind of awful about it too.
So all of that. But but the

655
00:48:36.119 --> 00:48:40.280
last thing, I just I've started
to use the phrase deep sex positivity to

656
00:48:40.280 --> 00:48:49.239
get into all this sexual justice diversity
stuff. That is that to me underpins

657
00:48:49.559 --> 00:48:52.800
whether somebody can say, woo,
I love that. I'm so sarcasmic now,

658
00:48:53.599 --> 00:48:59.719
and I would never say that there's
any problem with somebody stopping this,

659
00:49:00.280 --> 00:49:04.719
except I want them to understand,
just as I want them to understand that

660
00:49:04.840 --> 00:49:09.360
marriage equality for fifty years of work
to achieve, not a few, not

661
00:49:09.440 --> 00:49:15.280
a few cool lobbyists who find the
correct the code. It was social change

662
00:49:15.320 --> 00:49:20.239
for half a century or more.
We were talking about it out loud in

663
00:49:20.360 --> 00:49:25.159
nineteen seventy four. So I want
people to understand that the backstory of any

664
00:49:25.159 --> 00:49:31.519
of these things, of an old
steampunk look and vibrator, or how we

665
00:49:31.559 --> 00:49:36.840
talk about sexual orientation and gender identity
today, all of it, all of

666
00:49:36.840 --> 00:49:39.440
it's got a history, as we
talked about before, and it's part of

667
00:49:39.480 --> 00:49:45.599
what allows us to understand the mess
we're in, the opportunities we have,

668
00:49:46.039 --> 00:49:52.280
what's going on. That's it's always
got a backstory because just as you said,

669
00:49:53.079 --> 00:50:01.119
it's us as individuals and it's the
culture over arching and you can't you

670
00:50:01.119 --> 00:50:06.079
can't either or that it's not helpful
to either or that no very true,

671
00:50:06.119 --> 00:50:07.199
I mean, and it's funny.
That's also I would say, like a

672
00:50:07.599 --> 00:50:12.920
theme through this that we've seen as
a consistent problem kind of and on the

673
00:50:13.559 --> 00:50:15.559
on the social level, but then
also into the into the sort of identity

674
00:50:15.639 --> 00:50:19.840
level too. Right, It's like
when we actually insist upon a binerism.

675
00:50:19.960 --> 00:50:22.079
I mean, I'm thinking of the
meta from Mars, when are from Venus

676
00:50:22.119 --> 00:50:23.960
to right, that that whole of
the eighties nineties craze, you know,

677
00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:28.239
like these Yeah, this is the
opposite push the binarism itself, right,

678
00:50:28.280 --> 00:50:30.559
and like so it's it's when it
when we get to this either or space,

679
00:50:30.639 --> 00:50:34.159
like it doesn't really work well on
a on this like human diversity level,

680
00:50:34.159 --> 00:50:37.480
and like most things areklinal, right, there's actually a a like spectrum

681
00:50:37.800 --> 00:50:39.199
of difference, you know, and
so there may be like more extreme differences

682
00:50:39.199 --> 00:50:43.400
on the sides of a belcher like
typically like where you can actually move across,

683
00:50:43.400 --> 00:50:45.599
and there's like not a like left
or right either or one or zero.

684
00:50:45.840 --> 00:50:50.719
And it's it's funny like and also
refreshing to kind of then be more

685
00:50:50.760 --> 00:50:53.239
emphatic with folks about like this is
actually how we have to understand more of

686
00:50:53.280 --> 00:50:57.320
actual reality, is that it is
not in either or scenario and it really

687
00:50:57.320 --> 00:51:01.079
hasn't been bad mind virus but the
virus. Yeah, right, it's like,

688
00:51:01.119 --> 00:51:04.079
you know, we we like to
classify things as people, and that's

689
00:51:04.079 --> 00:51:07.360
not the worst characteristic of us as
humans, but yes, when we then

690
00:51:07.440 --> 00:51:08.960
then take it the next step and
say, actually, it's like here's my

691
00:51:09.079 --> 00:51:13.400
two boxes. We tend to run
in issues, right, and even to

692
00:51:13.440 --> 00:51:16.199
this point that like sex positivity as
recognizing that I think this is important,

693
00:51:16.239 --> 00:51:20.800
you know, to underscore that.
Again, It's not this idea of just

694
00:51:20.800 --> 00:51:22.400
saying, oh, I'm super fun
and I like to have all the kinds

695
00:51:22.440 --> 00:51:24.760
of sex with all the kinds of
people things in places, And it's like,

696
00:51:24.760 --> 00:51:28.800
it isn't that or that only right? It's like, are you even

697
00:51:28.800 --> 00:51:31.239
okay saying that? And that's this
is the great you know, anthological sociological

698
00:51:31.239 --> 00:51:35.280
point too. It's like, what
are the conditions under which you feel safe

699
00:51:35.280 --> 00:51:37.679
doing that? And why why why
might other people not feel safe doing that?

700
00:51:37.719 --> 00:51:39.840
And so because there is the other
story and what are the why are

701
00:51:39.880 --> 00:51:46.360
the boundaries? Yeah? Absolutely,
it's so important. It's because even if

702
00:51:46.360 --> 00:51:51.840
there were only two types, like
say, say there were only men and

703
00:51:51.880 --> 00:51:55.760
women, say we say, we
say we give the folks who believe that,

704
00:51:57.440 --> 00:51:59.920
say we give them that for a
minute and consider it a little.

705
00:52:00.719 --> 00:52:02.199
I'm going to take it back after
I say this, of course, because

706
00:52:02.199 --> 00:52:06.079
I don't believe it for a second. But let's say let's say we did

707
00:52:06.159 --> 00:52:10.639
believe it. Thought experiment. Yeah, thought experiment for you buyinarists. Even

708
00:52:10.679 --> 00:52:15.960
if there are only men and women, that would not mean that if you

709
00:52:16.039 --> 00:52:22.039
touch girlfriend too, the way you
touched girlfriend one, it would achieve the

710
00:52:22.079 --> 00:52:29.960
same sexual result because we are not
exactly the freaking sane. We're each one

711
00:52:30.079 --> 00:52:35.119
of us somewhat different in what we
like. We go to restaurants, we

712
00:52:35.239 --> 00:52:38.480
order different kinds of meals, we
go to you know, it's just not

713
00:52:39.119 --> 00:52:45.039
We're not two kinds of gendered robots. And those of you who are trying

714
00:52:45.079 --> 00:52:52.400
to teach your kids and your community
that that's what we are, you're setting

715
00:52:52.519 --> 00:52:58.599
them up for such pain, or
other people who aren't like them up for

716
00:52:58.719 --> 00:53:02.480
such pain. I mean, great
if that's your strategy, But you know,

717
00:53:02.559 --> 00:53:07.360
the idea that we could get to
the point in our identity and our

718
00:53:07.880 --> 00:53:13.800
relational life, our sexual life,
and our life in general where we're comfortable

719
00:53:13.960 --> 00:53:16.760
and feel like we're where we belong. Why wouldn't we think that was great?

720
00:53:17.360 --> 00:53:22.119
Why would that be a problem for
anybody? I mean, I wish

721
00:53:22.239 --> 00:53:28.679
that for all y'all imagining these spiners. I wish that for you. I

722
00:53:28.679 --> 00:53:35.800
would really appreciate you understanding that that
life would be less stressy for everybody if

723
00:53:35.800 --> 00:53:39.320
we opened our eyes to diversity a
little more. And I'm not just talking

724
00:53:39.360 --> 00:53:44.679
about sex and gender diversity either,
of course talking about the kinds of diversity

725
00:53:44.760 --> 00:53:49.039
that impact us in our society,
and there are plenty of those. I

726
00:53:49.119 --> 00:53:52.239
hope to that you know, that's
a good, good thought experiment now now

727
00:53:52.280 --> 00:53:59.159
bracketed off now that yeah, okay, nope, no that's to do with

728
00:53:59.199 --> 00:54:02.639
it, yeah, right, Like, but I think that that's a that's

729
00:54:02.679 --> 00:54:06.559
a it's a great point to think
about too. It's like I was thinking

730
00:54:06.559 --> 00:54:10.159
about this in a slightly different way
the other day actually that it's it's that

731
00:54:10.239 --> 00:54:13.199
you know, there they got to
put this. It was like, there's

732
00:54:13.239 --> 00:54:15.360
not there's there's many ways to even
if one you know, doesn't think about

733
00:54:15.360 --> 00:54:20.039
a metaphysical, larger reality of if
there's like a you know, if there's

734
00:54:20.079 --> 00:54:22.400
a God or some other bigger being
out there or other whether it's collective or

735
00:54:22.480 --> 00:54:28.000
individual or external or whatever. But
there's an interesting question of like there is

736
00:54:28.079 --> 00:54:30.519
a reality of human suffering though,
whether or not there is, and that's

737
00:54:30.519 --> 00:54:35.480
an interesting question of like are we
are we increasing suffering or are we alleviating

738
00:54:35.519 --> 00:54:37.280
it? And like what what do
we feel is our responsibility in that regard?

739
00:54:37.840 --> 00:54:42.199
And so I think to your point, like when we provide more space

740
00:54:42.280 --> 00:54:44.960
for people to well, I mean
one, when you find belonging like that

741
00:54:44.960 --> 00:54:47.079
feels like it would lessen some sense
of suffering. When you find self expression,

742
00:54:47.199 --> 00:54:50.159
it feels like that would lessen some
suffering. And so we have to

743
00:54:50.199 --> 00:54:52.599
ask ourselves to what end and why
would we and why do we feel the

744
00:54:52.639 --> 00:54:57.639
need to make other people or ourselves
suffer when we feel these things? And

745
00:54:57.679 --> 00:55:00.679
that's it's a good question that we
know obviously we have we're wrestling with here,

746
00:55:00.679 --> 00:55:01.440
but that we should I think we
should continue to wrestle with and like,

747
00:55:01.440 --> 00:55:06.079
I'm hopefully we can solve writing more
space, but like you know,

748
00:55:06.440 --> 00:55:09.320
it's it's an interesting notion in terms
of that of like, I feel like

749
00:55:09.320 --> 00:55:12.920
that's part of this too, right, It's that are we how was the

750
00:55:12.960 --> 00:55:15.920
relationship between providing space or not for
self and others and the role of suffering

751
00:55:15.960 --> 00:55:21.039
that we may enact And if you
can honestly put on some limiting binders and

752
00:55:21.079 --> 00:55:23.440
then say, I'm also I understand
I'm causing suffering and you're okay with that,

753
00:55:23.519 --> 00:55:25.480
and that that's a different question,
your different answer, I suppose,

754
00:55:25.519 --> 00:55:29.840
But I think most people would not
not aim for that there. I don't

755
00:55:29.840 --> 00:55:34.119
think so either, And you know, I've one of the one of the

756
00:55:34.159 --> 00:55:39.199
sort of early strategies that I undertook
to try to try to think in a

757
00:55:39.199 --> 00:55:45.800
compassionate enough way to include the binary
folk, the authoritarian folk, the folk

758
00:55:45.880 --> 00:55:50.159
who you know kicked my little friends
out of the house for being gay boys,

759
00:55:50.559 --> 00:55:52.840
all of the all of those people
who you know, not gonna lie.

760
00:55:53.039 --> 00:55:57.199
I had thought in terms of is
enemies to me and my people,

761
00:55:57.719 --> 00:56:01.239
and still can if I I had
to go into that particular space and that

762
00:56:01.320 --> 00:56:07.280
rabbit hole. But one of the
sort of thought experiments for me was that

763
00:56:07.400 --> 00:56:09.079
tried to heal that. And by
heal, I don't mean make it all

764
00:56:09.079 --> 00:56:13.239
go away and ignore the problem.
I don't mean that, But I mean

765
00:56:14.000 --> 00:56:16.400
I've got to talk to those people
too. As I said earlier, I

766
00:56:16.480 --> 00:56:21.280
know that there are plenty of people
in that world that need to hear the

767
00:56:21.320 --> 00:56:24.199
things that have been meaningful to me
and to others in these communities. So

768
00:56:24.280 --> 00:56:29.480
let's keep talking. I basically say, I don't think there's anybody out there

769
00:56:29.719 --> 00:56:34.840
who wants sex in their own life
to be problematic, to be painful,

770
00:56:34.960 --> 00:56:39.559
to be terrible not their own experience. There are people out there who are

771
00:56:39.639 --> 00:56:45.280
kind of awful to each other.
Who might get a little thrill out of

772
00:56:45.679 --> 00:56:50.039
non consensual, non consensual terribleness.
Sure, we see that, but I

773
00:56:50.039 --> 00:56:53.199
don't think any individual grows up,
steps out in the world and says I

774
00:56:53.239 --> 00:56:59.280
want it to be terrible, I
want I want my body to feel like

775
00:56:59.320 --> 00:57:04.159
it's wrong things happening. I mean, nobody feels that way. And why

776
00:57:05.039 --> 00:57:08.239
would we think, I mean,
to your suffering point, why would we

777
00:57:08.280 --> 00:57:14.519
think it's okay to try to create
a world where that is how people feel

778
00:57:14.559 --> 00:57:17.920
and what they do experience, because
there is plenty of that in the world,

779
00:57:19.679 --> 00:57:24.360
and it's part you know, I'm
talking some philosophical ideas, you know,

780
00:57:24.480 --> 00:57:30.760
I'm I'm talking from my ology space. Of course, it's important to

781
00:57:30.840 --> 00:57:34.960
me. It helps me make sense
of things. It's a tool, it's

782
00:57:35.000 --> 00:57:42.599
a pleasure most of the time.
But honestly, there's also just the living

783
00:57:42.639 --> 00:57:45.039
as a human in the world among
humans, which is what you really were

784
00:57:45.039 --> 00:57:51.239
getting too with that question of suffering. And if you go folks can't tell

785
00:57:51.280 --> 00:57:55.679
me how your authoritarian notions about all
of these things are going to alleviate suffering.

786
00:57:57.519 --> 00:58:00.760
If you can't tell me how you
think it makes it better for everybody,

787
00:58:00.079 --> 00:58:06.920
then go home. Start start opening
your heart to why people live different

788
00:58:06.920 --> 00:58:09.519
ways. Yeah, I think that's
right on and such an important piece for

789
00:58:09.599 --> 00:58:13.519
us to ruminate on. I mean, I think we could keep going on

790
00:58:13.559 --> 00:58:15.639
this and maybe maybe we'll do a
sequel with this too, But I want

791
00:58:15.639 --> 00:58:19.039
to be respectful every time for now
too as well, because I think it's

792
00:58:19.039 --> 00:58:22.519
such an important area and I think
this has been such a fascinating conversation.

793
00:58:22.719 --> 00:58:25.800
I appreciate you walking through this so
far as I just wanted to as a

794
00:58:25.920 --> 00:58:30.599
as a wrap up question or kind
of thought provoker. Is just I know

795
00:58:30.639 --> 00:58:31.800
you set up top you working on
a memoir, which I think is really

796
00:58:31.800 --> 00:58:34.480
exciting. Is you know, I
want to get a sense of like,

797
00:58:34.519 --> 00:58:37.360
what's what's really exciting on your radar
now? I mean like on one level

798
00:58:37.360 --> 00:58:39.320
would be like the sequel might be
the future of sex where we going Maybe

799
00:58:39.320 --> 00:58:42.400
you can tease that idea too,
But you know, I'm curious and in

800
00:58:42.480 --> 00:58:44.760
your thoughts about this, like what
what's getting excited these days? And it

801
00:58:44.840 --> 00:58:46.280
might be the future of sex,
which could be a good good segue.

802
00:58:46.360 --> 00:58:51.280
But well, I think, you
know, if we can find ourselves figuring

803
00:58:51.320 --> 00:58:54.119
out a way to work with the
sociology of all of this, which is

804
00:58:54.119 --> 00:59:00.840
a big question. There is more
and mostly better sex research happening now than

805
00:59:00.880 --> 00:59:07.440
has happened much in the past.
The sex research of twenty thirty, forty,

806
00:59:07.519 --> 00:59:14.159
et cetera, backwards years ago wasn't
always was often too binary, was

807
00:59:14.239 --> 00:59:19.239
often not fully informed. I mean, you know, like, you got

808
00:59:19.280 --> 00:59:21.920
to know some things about your topic
before you do good research about it.

809
00:59:21.960 --> 00:59:24.559
And people got terrible information about sex, So why would the research have been

810
00:59:24.639 --> 00:59:29.559
stellar all the time. It wasn't
always stellar. I don't know if it's

811
00:59:29.599 --> 00:59:34.480
all stellar now, but I know
that it's more interesting, it's more diverse,

812
00:59:34.559 --> 00:59:40.360
it's getting to different things. It's
beginning to normalize things that many people

813
00:59:40.400 --> 00:59:44.960
didn't know much about, and I
think that's extremely exciting. I think the

814
00:59:45.079 --> 00:59:50.760
sex told people are like, let's
always build better sex toys, And honestly,

815
00:59:50.800 --> 00:59:54.920
why not as long as we are
miired here in late stage capitalism and

816
00:59:54.960 --> 01:00:00.119
we buy some things and sell somethings, and why wouldn't we want to have

817
01:00:00.199 --> 01:00:07.239
more interesting bodily experiences with our toys. Fine, I think that's great,

818
01:00:07.760 --> 01:00:12.360
and I think that that there is
going to be you know, I'm I'm

819
01:00:12.400 --> 01:00:16.239
not going to be your pro ai
guest, at least not this year,

820
01:00:17.239 --> 01:00:25.280
because not real sure. I trust
the way the people at the top of

821
01:00:25.320 --> 01:00:30.639
that scene think through the questions that
we've talked about at any length here today

822
01:00:30.679 --> 01:00:35.000
or even alluded to a little tiny
bit. And I like to run around

823
01:00:35.000 --> 01:00:38.159
San Francisco and go to nice restaurants
and yell loudly from my table. Have

824
01:00:38.280 --> 01:00:46.000
they never read any dystopian fiction and
they never understand that I'm talking about them.

825
01:00:46.800 --> 01:00:54.280
So frustrating. But what I do
think is if we, if we

826
01:00:54.480 --> 01:01:02.199
corral the society properly, that there
will be ways for people to use technologies

827
01:01:02.280 --> 01:01:10.000
like this to even more readily learn
into things that they weren't taught already,

828
01:01:10.119 --> 01:01:14.960
things that they want to know,
things that can connections that can be made.

829
01:01:15.000 --> 01:01:22.239
I mean, I can't imagine that
there aren't some pretty extraordinary possibilities in

830
01:01:22.679 --> 01:01:28.239
the project of getting all of the
information in the universe together and sticking out

831
01:01:28.280 --> 01:01:30.760
on a gizmo that we many of
us have access to. I have a

832
01:01:30.840 --> 01:01:36.880
hope that there will be some good
that will come from that. I already

833
01:01:37.039 --> 01:01:42.760
see that people who we didn't even
know were part of our communities thirty years

834
01:01:42.840 --> 01:01:47.320
ago found each other on the Internet
and you can find your people who live

835
01:01:47.559 --> 01:01:52.880
anywhere in the world now. And
because of the thing I said about global

836
01:01:52.119 --> 01:01:55.960
troubles earlier, I also want to
say I feel like there is global support

837
01:01:57.159 --> 01:02:01.760
available for those who can get it. And to make this all stay a

838
01:02:01.880 --> 01:02:08.960
positive, growthful possibility, we've got
to keep an eye on Internet privacy and

839
01:02:09.039 --> 01:02:15.000
all that that entails, because you
know they're they're going to come for our

840
01:02:15.000 --> 01:02:20.320
search results. They're you know,
the late stage capitalism already did. If

841
01:02:20.519 --> 01:02:25.199
authoritarians can, they will. And
all of us need to understand that we've

842
01:02:25.199 --> 01:02:29.039
got a dog in the race.
You know, any of us who have

843
01:02:29.079 --> 01:02:32.119
a gizmo anyway, who ever looked
up a sex thing, much less found

844
01:02:32.119 --> 01:02:36.719
a partner much any of it.
You know, we've all got dogs in

845
01:02:36.719 --> 01:02:42.440
this race now. And it's both
kind of harrowing and extremely exciting about the

846
01:02:42.519 --> 01:02:46.679
possibilities. You know, challenges are
sometimes good for humans. I'm not going

847
01:02:46.760 --> 01:02:52.800
to say we always do great,
but I think sometimes challenges are good for

848
01:02:52.880 --> 01:02:55.920
humans. And we've got an amazing
challenge right now. We're sitting at an

849
01:02:55.960 --> 01:03:00.000
inflection point in all kinds of ways. I don't even say anything about global

850
01:03:00.000 --> 01:03:06.360
warming, oh, climate change,
oh, just stop arguing about nomenclature and

851
01:03:06.760 --> 01:03:09.880
start thinking about harm in the future, because we can do it, you

852
01:03:09.880 --> 01:03:14.039
know, we can. We can
point at our genitals and start talking about

853
01:03:14.079 --> 01:03:19.280
it, and we can point everything
around us and have comparable conversations. We

854
01:03:19.320 --> 01:03:21.840
need to be having them. No, I love that, And I think

855
01:03:21.880 --> 01:03:23.480
this is like, you know,
it's getting me thinking about like, okay,

856
01:03:23.480 --> 01:03:25.800
what both the title of this episode, but then also in general,

857
01:03:25.840 --> 01:03:29.760
it's like, yeah, like what
why pointing out our genitals actually is a

858
01:03:30.000 --> 01:03:32.800
great starting point for conversations and climate
change. There they are. We're just

859
01:03:32.840 --> 01:03:36.159
what doing? Don't we know?
What? Do we need to do?

860
01:03:36.719 --> 01:03:40.840
So many things? Yes? And
also it's just it's just not tenable for

861
01:03:40.920 --> 01:03:45.679
us to say, well, you
know, I guess, I guess I'm

862
01:03:45.719 --> 01:03:51.679
not really a person who can do
anything about any of this. There are

863
01:03:51.840 --> 01:03:55.000
incremental things that we can do for
the health of our planet and our quality

864
01:03:55.599 --> 01:04:00.280
and for our own bodies and our
sexual pleasure, and our ability need to

865
01:04:00.320 --> 01:04:03.719
connect and our ability to communicate.
And it turns out I think that all

866
01:04:03.840 --> 01:04:09.079
the tools we use for either of
those big or small as above so below

867
01:04:09.679 --> 01:04:15.679
situations, those tools are also useful
for the other we we need more media

868
01:04:15.719 --> 01:04:19.000
literacy. We need to understand some
more. We need to not you know,

869
01:04:19.119 --> 01:04:23.679
take up I don't know why I
don't feel good about this for an

870
01:04:23.719 --> 01:04:26.559
answer. We need to interrogate it. We need to you know, know

871
01:04:26.639 --> 01:04:30.039
ourselves and then talk about what we
learned to each other. And that's how,

872
01:04:30.800 --> 01:04:33.760
you know, that's how the queer
community grew, It's how all of

873
01:04:33.800 --> 01:04:39.000
our communities can grow. Right,
it isn't always about sex, but if

874
01:04:39.000 --> 01:04:44.239
it's leaving sex behind in the closet, that's where that term came from.

875
01:04:44.400 --> 01:04:45.519
People use it for all kinds of
things now. But you do know,

876
01:04:45.559 --> 01:04:50.880
I've meant being closeted about homosexuality to
begin with, right, if it's in

877
01:04:50.920 --> 01:04:55.119
the closet, if it can't be
the other the other term we use in

878
01:04:55.119 --> 01:04:59.239
the old days with he's not for
streetwear. You couldn't go out with someone

879
01:04:59.239 --> 01:05:02.159
who was too view because you might
find yourself at you know, in jail

880
01:05:02.199 --> 01:05:08.079
at the end of the night.
So we need to be able to communicate

881
01:05:08.119 --> 01:05:12.639
about all these things. It's crucial. It's crucial. And if and if

882
01:05:12.639 --> 01:05:15.920
people are overwhelmed by the things that
we need and the big the big picture

883
01:05:16.000 --> 01:05:19.599
to save the world stuff. You
can put your glitterest penis or whatever you

884
01:05:19.599 --> 01:05:24.039
got or whatever you call it,
because you know what, you communicate about

885
01:05:24.079 --> 01:05:29.239
that too and have a better life
and understand that you just crossed a barrier

886
01:05:29.320 --> 01:05:32.760
that my whole life, probably most
of your life, people said you can't

887
01:05:32.760 --> 01:05:36.199
cross that barrier. So I was
all, Okay, maybe I'll go do

888
01:05:36.239 --> 01:05:44.320
it for a living. And I'm
so thankful that you're out there doing it

889
01:05:44.320 --> 01:05:45.679
too, and like, because we
need we need this work, thank you,

890
01:05:46.079 --> 01:05:48.920
And so I'm yeah, hugely thankful
of your working, Amiron. So

891
01:05:49.239 --> 01:05:54.079
excited to get your books out on
the list for folks to check out as

892
01:05:54.119 --> 01:05:56.079
well if they have it already.
And again, I'd love to have you

893
01:05:56.119 --> 01:05:59.679
back to either talk memoir or more
conversations, because I think this is such

894
01:06:00.159 --> 01:06:02.800
important point to that I even didn't
realize as we began. It's like how

895
01:06:02.880 --> 01:06:09.920
this is actually like how sex is
both so integral and like biological, and

896
01:06:09.960 --> 01:06:12.599
then yet it helps us think about
everything else too. So it's like,

897
01:06:12.599 --> 01:06:15.280
if we can communicate about this,
we can talk about the other things too,

898
01:06:15.320 --> 01:06:17.440
and we need to talk about both. So you got to pick where

899
01:06:17.480 --> 01:06:19.280
you can start, and but we
have to start is the point right,

900
01:06:19.360 --> 01:06:24.239
yep, exactly right, And thank
you for having me. I've had such

901
01:06:24.280 --> 01:06:27.559
a such an interal conversation with you. You have such great questions and make

902
01:06:27.639 --> 01:06:34.360
great points. So you know,
when when ology minds connect, lovely thing

903
01:06:35.599 --> 01:06:42.880
why we go to college people,
It's because this kind of conversation is,

904
01:06:42.920 --> 01:06:45.840
in fact one of the great pleasures
that we have access to in this world.

905
01:06:45.599 --> 01:06:48.320
Indeed, indeed, well, thank
you so much, you are so

906
01:06:48.400 --> 01:06:53.960
welcome. Thanks. It's been a
phenomenal journey through anthropology and sexuality with the

907
01:06:53.960 --> 01:06:59.000
insightful Carol Queen. Today we've explored
sex positivity from multiple lenses science, identity,

908
01:06:59.079 --> 01:07:02.440
society, history, the end personal
experiences. The importance relevance of communication

909
01:07:02.639 --> 01:07:08.280
have been underlined, especially in the
context of expressing and understanding each other's sexual

910
01:07:08.280 --> 01:07:13.159
identities. So this conversation reminds me
how significant socio cultural aspects are in determining

911
01:07:13.159 --> 01:07:16.840
our perceptions and attitudes towards sexuality.
Not only can understanding these facets open up

912
01:07:16.880 --> 01:07:20.840
new forms of dialogue, but it
can also contribute to sharper perspectives to global

913
01:07:20.840 --> 01:07:25.400
conversations on well being, diversity,
and rights. So as we wrap up,

914
01:07:25.480 --> 01:07:29.199
let's remember that the subject is not
one that is separated from daily life,

915
01:07:29.239 --> 01:07:32.159
but rather it's an inseparable and integral
part of being human. So I

916
01:07:32.199 --> 01:07:35.559
hope that the invitation to learn,
grow and better connect with one another resonate's

917
01:07:35.599 --> 01:07:40.159
loud and clear. So remember each
question that we ask, each conversation that

918
01:07:40.199 --> 01:07:44.480
we spark, is an exciting step
towards a more humane world. So with

919
01:07:44.559 --> 01:07:46.559
that, I'm thankful for your time
and your ears. As always, please

920
01:07:46.559 --> 01:07:48.960
feel free to get in contact,
leave a comment below, or join me

921
01:07:49.039 --> 01:07:53.239
over on social media and substack with
our blog. You've been listening to this

922
01:07:53.280 --> 01:07:56.039
anthro life and I'm your host,
Adam Gamwell, we'll see you next time.