May 11, 2026

The Truth About AI & The Future of Humanity

The Truth About AI & The Future of Humanity
The Truth About AI & The Future of Humanity
This Anthro Life
The Truth About AI & The Future of Humanity
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What if the future isn’t something we predict, but something we design? In this episode of This Anthro Life, host Adam Gamwell is joined by Carissa Carter and Scott Doorley to dive into the hidden forces shaping our world—from speculative fiction to emerging technologies and the ripple effects of design. They explore mammoth de-extinction, AI, and the unintended consequences of innovation, challenging us to rethink how we approach progress. How do the stories we tell influence what’s possible? What happens when corporations take on responsibilities once held by governments? And can we really predict the impact of new technology before it’s too late? This conversation is a must-listen for anyone curious about the future of design, technology, and society. Whether you’re a designer, thinker, or just fascinated by what’s next, this episode will change how you see the world—and your role in shaping it.
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The role of humility in design, I think is way underestimated.

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Like if you're a practicing designer, I think the idea

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is that, like you know, these sort of rock star

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designers designs like a bit of an egotistical art. It

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is totally humbling, Like you make something and it does

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not work the first time, and then you create something

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else and it's like it works for thirty percent, but

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not the other seventy, and then you get up to

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the seventy and then the thirty percent is really not

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it's not working at all, Like it's you're just constantly

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confronted with what you don't know, and so you start

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to develop tactics to like figure out what you don't know.

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You know, if you're going to be a good designer,

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you have to be able to like recognize that you're

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ignorant frankly and find ways to you know, bring people

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in who understand what you don't.

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But so really excited to welcome you both to this

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anthro life podcast.

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You know.

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One of the things I love of anthropology in my

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own bias right is the kind of the holistic perspective

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that it brings to thinking about the human pathways in

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human stories, and I think I really love in the

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work that both of you do, especially in the new

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book that you put together on Assembling Tomorrow, has really

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opened up this question of thinking more holistically in terms

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of our design processes, right, and what that could be

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in terms of layers of how we think about design

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and experiences, you know, systems, products themselves and things like that.

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So really excited to dive into all of that. But

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to kick us off, I'm excited to have Chris A.

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Carter on the podcast with me. Is a geoscientist turn

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a design educator which is really cool, and Scott Doorley

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a filmmaker turn at design educator. So both really cool,

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interesting backgrounds that you know, I want to dive into.

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It kind of makes sense about the work that you're

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doing now and that you're both working as in educational

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aspects creative direction, putting together the department the administration side

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of it too at the Stanford School. So really excited

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to have you on the podcast. So thank you both

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for joining me on the pot today.

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Thanks for having us, Adam. We're's oat to be here.

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Thanks Adam.

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Awesome.

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Let's let's kind of set the stage a little bit,

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you know, here in getting this this idea of one

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of the things that really stood out to me as

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we think about what does it mean to assemble tomorrow

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and think of this broader approach around design is the

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way that you kind of open these these histories of

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the future, you know, this kind of I think, this

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really interesting pathway of this blend. And so I want

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to kind of start with that idea of like what

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does it mean to kind of tell stories about about

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the future writing kind of histories of them. And so

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one that really stood out to me and I think

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is a good like centerpiece of the book itself, is

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the idea of on mammoth step around the mammoth step,

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thinking about bio biodesign. So maybe you could walk us

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through a little bit of this idea, you know, for

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folks that are coming into your work, and tell us

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a bit about what's happening in the story and like

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why why this story seem to make sense as a

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way to kind of center your argument in your story.

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Yeah, I mean, so the histories of the future are

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these twenty speculative stories that span the course of our nonfiction.

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So there's these moments of imagination that we tried to

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paint across the book as a way to envision possibilities

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as to like what the future might like look like,

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so that we could decide, like, hey, we like, do

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we like how it feels to be in this future?

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Can we try it on before it happens? And On

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the Mammoth Step, the story you're referring to, occurs right

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in the middle of the book, in between parts one

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and two, and it does that because it spans the

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themes of the entire book. What's happening in this story

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is we're transported into a world that's not too far

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in the future and you know, only within fifty ish

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years from now, where the very like in today twenty

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twenty four age the science of mammoth the extinction, which

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is actively being worked on today. In the On the

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Mammoth Step story, it has worked and we have we

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have mammoths and they are existing up in the place

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to see in the park area in what's currently Russia.

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And what's happening in that story is like we're looking

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at all of the roles and responsibilities that new people

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have in there. So you mentioned the biomic designer, who's

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really the one of the heroines of the story whose

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job is to program the biome around the mammoths, And

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you know, like envisioning like that is a job is interesting,

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right because when you bring if you we're going to

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de extinct the huge mammal, we have to think about

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how it's going to affect the other elements in the ecosystem,

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the smaller animals, the flora, the fauna, Like who are

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what are entities governmental environmental that may have interest in

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how that de extinction effort plays out. So that story

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really delves into the drama over a week's worth of

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time in this era of mammoth de extinction.

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I love I love that story for the for these reasons.

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And it's something else that you know stands out to

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your point is that both the power of speculative fiction

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of how's we think about what does it mean to

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talk about what the future can be? But then to

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your two as you noted there too that you know

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the Church Lab at Harvard is is literally working on

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this exact problem. So it's like this funny point of

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like both talking about future stories, but there's there's nuggets

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of it today also, right, And a lot of the

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stories that you share too, and that's a really interesting

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piece to to think about as we're contemplating what does

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it mean to use speculative future as a way of

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kind of walking walking forward and what could be? And

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then also I think as an important metaphor and tool

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for making sense of how do we think more holistically

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about the reverberations of designs and the processes themselves. Like

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I'm curious to you as you thought about this, like

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why what are you to mammoths as the symbol to

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kind of show the halfway point between these these like

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intangibles and the actionables, like what we can do and

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what's kind of shaping the forces of our lives.

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I mean, the extinction is wild, right, Like the fact

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that we could bring back a species that used to

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be on this planet, you know, even with humans here,

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right Like so mammoths, mammoths were here when humans were

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on the planet. The fact that we could bring them back,

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it really plays with our psyches in an interesting way.

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It's a they are great combination of these really tricky

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technologies Scott and I call them mischievous materials in the

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book that can morph and change themselves after humans have

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launched them into the world, and really you know, affect

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the rest of the natural world in affect us in

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ways that we may not you know, be able to

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control or even recognize. So you know, working on DNA

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is one of these mischievous materials. And it felt like

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again like as you said, the Church Lab is working

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on this, right, It's like it's not that far fetched,

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and so it feels it felt like both like just

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enough fascinating to hold your attention, but also like really

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important because if we're going to have like a huge

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new animal like the mammoth walking around, like that's gonna

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have like serious ecological implications if not economic, if not

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you know, social, if not you know like add on

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whatever whatever other system you want to that we will

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feel those reverberations. And so it felt quite emblematic of

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both what's possible, but also feels fantastical a little bit too.

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That's that's a great answer, and it's it's such a

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a pointent I agree to it because it's like a

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charismatic megafauna, right, is like one of the emblems of

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also this question of like what came before and what

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could be next. I'm curious, you know, Scott, if you

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if you're that kind of making or thinking through a

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narrative to like, was was Jurassic Park a huge influence

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back in the day, And then it was like this

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is a great way to try to talk about what

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could be, But today it's somehow last like Flicys seen

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Park as a real place also, which is kind of

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funny to have to recognize that it's a Jassic Park

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is not actually not there, it's it's it's over in

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North Russia.

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Yeah, that's so funny that you bring up Jurassic Park

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because when I saw that movie, I was so fascinated

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by the animations that I came out of the theater

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kind of walking like a Veloco raptor, you know, like this.

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I was like, Wow, how.

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Did they get that? You know?

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And I think that's part of why storytelling is so effective,

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is it it takes a very abstract idea and it

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makes it really concrete in a way where you have

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to get into the details, not just speculation about what

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if this, No, it's going to be so nuts out

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are we gonna imagine what's going to happen? But you

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get into what's the day to day life. I Mean,

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one of my favorite things in the Man Step story

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is that it's a lot about the interpersonal relationships that

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are going on, and they're trying to it's not just

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about these big decisions that we're making about mammas. It's

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about the inner personal relationships that are guiding those decisions.

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And to you know, the idea of making it a

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history of the future was to sort of do that

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thing that you as an anthropologists do, which is to

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look at what is in a way that looks at

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it as if it's a little bit you know, not

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quite normal, right, You don't look at it, you know,

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like all the assumptions in living in it that make

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it kind of fall into the background. We wanted to highlight,

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you know, like what would the world really be like,

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what would relationships be like when this technology is now

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in the middle of them, because that's where we're going

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to be living. It's not it's unlikely that it'll be

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in these huge utopia dystopia situations that we all have

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in our head. It's going to be day to day

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life's going to feel normal in this weird new environment,

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and what's normal going to feel like?

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Yeah, and why is that exactly? Why is that the normal?

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You know?

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When it changes, it's funny too, because obviously the other

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the I appreciate that, like the the you know, utopia

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dystopia kind of tag of like, let's not we're not

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trying to necessarily go to either of those, of course,

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but that's like where we always jump when you think

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about these things, right, Obviously, with the rise of generative AI,

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you know, there's there's always often two major camps that

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it's like we're going to see the either destruction of

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everything human and terminator or the matrix is going to happen,

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and or it's like they're actually just really kind of

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you know six grader writers that you know, it's the

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hours of the Internet.

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Like that's not a great like aspiration.

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It just brings it down to size, right you know, well,

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I mean that's that's thing.

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I'm kind of curious to think about that too, to

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that point of like how do we can we think

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about the idea of size in that regard in terms

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of like, obviously there is already huge reverberations taking place

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around AI, and I think you all, I think engage

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some really interesting and important conversations. And fiction is too

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around me, like data privacy, surveillance and pieces like that

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that we're both experiencing now, but then also what.

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What those those pieces might take us into.

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But part of it is that we I don't is

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it like in terms of both inspiration for for the

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book is help, But ask you how you explore the

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like themes like surveillance or data in privacy? Is it

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because we tend to get the size wrong in terms

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of when we're thinking about what we're making. You know,

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I love the idea that you talk about reverberations and

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that's that there's there's a time element there, you know,

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But do we miss something about size too? I'm kind

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of curious in your perspective.

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Yeah, that's a calling out size is really really you

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know on point I think it's with these emerging technologies.

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One is their invisibility. So the fact that most of them,

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like you can't see an algorithm. You see the effects

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of the algorithm, but you don't see the thing itself,

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not in the same way that we see wood or

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plastic or other types of building materials, which is partly

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what makes them that that mischievous.

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And their speed at which.

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They can be launched, the ease with which they can

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be launched, and the speed at which they can be

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launched and then and then change and scale quickly. So

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I think like that is the size element that you're

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calling out, Like you you can launch something from your

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home computer that could be scale to the planet instantly.

245
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I mean we just saw it with the with the

246
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with the CrowdStrike. Oh yeah, you know attack, right, like

247
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an update that was pushed to hopefully keep things secure,

248
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like all of a sudden takes down systems across the planet,

249
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like in an instant. How many people were crippled because

250
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of that, right, Like we're we're that size as fast

251
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as happening, And again like we didn't That's a great

252
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example of one where it's like we didn't know until

253
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we saw the effects of it taking everything down, how

254
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widespread it was.

255
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Yeah, that's a good example to it. And I I.

256
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Didn't realize that.

257
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I mean at the time we're recorded too, you know,

258
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it's just you know, looking today that they're like thousands

259
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of flights right just in the US alone, right have

260
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been grounded, And like that's a crazy thing to think about,

261
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right to your point, it's that then what does that

262
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mean then all the people that didn't get where they're going, right,

263
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and like these these kind of reverberations that can come

264
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from it from a data push, you know, and we

265
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don't recognize oftentimes that that idea of that that that

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kind of connectivity or interconnectivity there with how things happen.

267
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And something that that I'm kind of curious think about

268
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in that respect with you, Chris, is that you know,

269
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since you've got a background of geoscience too, I think

270
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is very cool, Like how did that kind of focus

271
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or background kind of shape the approach that y'all took

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in terms of like you brought in like ecological system,

273
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which I think is a very important part obviously we're

274
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talking about, you know, biomic design also is part of

275
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the mammoth story, So like, how did that shape the

276
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thinking in terms of what are the right layers we

277
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have to talk about when we're thinking about reverberations and

278
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at what point does Earth show up right these geology show.

279
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Yeah, I think like Scott and I both believe like

280
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where we are all many things, you know, like none

281
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no one of us is just one thing, and one

282
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of the ways you can define us is by the

283
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careers that we've explored in our interest areas. But then

284
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like like or also parents, we're also like citizens of

285
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different areas, we've like lived in different places, and that

286
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overlap of possibility and our lenses in the world, Like,

287
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that's the that's the that's the hook we wanted to

288
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capitalize on in like like fleshing out the book overall,

289
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and then for me personally, you know, my background geosciences

290
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has it people often think it's very drastic to go

291
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from geology to design.

292
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It's like, how about those are so different?

293
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Like in reality it it felt very very fluid to me,

294
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Like in the geosciences, it's a very interdisciplinary, like you

295
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have to do a lot of exploration of how you know,

296
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the different processes that currently shape the planet are, like

297
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how do they relate to the ones that have in

298
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the past?

299
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What might that mean for climate in the future?

300
00:14:58.960 --> 00:15:01.919
So what like the thing keen patterns are quite similar,

301
00:15:02.679 --> 00:15:06.679
and you know, and like the care for the planet

302
00:15:06.679 --> 00:15:08.840
that you see in the book isn't just mine, it's

303
00:15:08.840 --> 00:15:11.440
both of ours, right, I think like that was something

304
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that Scott and.

305
00:15:12.120 --> 00:15:13.320
I both worked hard towards.

306
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Is so it's to sound like one voice because we

307
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really we really do feel one voicy about about everything

308
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that we have in there.

309
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I will say, I appreciated the point that you did say,

310
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like you can try to guess who's writing who, but like,

311
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really it's true a lot of the stories are Chrissa,

312
00:15:32.039 --> 00:15:34.320
you know, it's a lot of the nature's me.

313
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But yeah, yep, well we'll never tell now, but I

314
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think I appreciate that.

315
00:15:41.240 --> 00:15:42.840
I think that's a great point too, and kind of

316
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recognizing also how these different pieces both from the background,

317
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but then also recognizing that how we ask questions, what

318
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we're looking for when we're thinking about uh, change over time,

319
00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:55.240
when we're thinking about scale, you know, like those are

320
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not discipline specific of anything, right, and that like I'm

321
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telling how to kind of build across those is I

322
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think an important point as we begin to also contemplate

323
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I imagine I actually i'murious.

324
00:16:05.720 --> 00:16:07.720
I'll say, if you see this at the d scal itself.

325
00:16:07.519 --> 00:16:12.240
Too, that like the rise of interdisciplinarity, interdisciplinary thinking right

326
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and approaches, and that even that's changing how some degrees

327
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work too, right as people.

328
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Are kind of educating for the future.

329
00:16:17.000 --> 00:16:18.840
So yeah, tell me a little bit about that, and

330
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like what you're seeing in that space, like building connections

331
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seems more important than ever.

332
00:16:22.840 --> 00:16:24.919
I guess, like as we educate our our future.

333
00:16:25.960 --> 00:16:27.200
I was gonna say youth, but it could be old

334
00:16:27.200 --> 00:16:30.240
people too, So anybody like educating our future, you know,

335
00:16:30.519 --> 00:16:32.480
how do we approach that? And as we're seeing boundaries

336
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become more porous in terms of like disciplines, content and ideas.

337
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I think there are a couple of things going on there.

338
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One is in the fact that everything's becoming so interconnected.

339
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The opportunities are in the overlaps, you know, So it's

340
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when two disciplines come together, it brings up a whole

341
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new thing, and there's a lot of a lot of

342
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new opportunity there. To the problems are so interconnected that

343
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there's just no way for one person or even someone

344
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from a specific discipline to take care of everything, right,

345
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Like we can only create by collaborating now and then

346
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last actually, then to add on one thing is the

347
00:17:08.960 --> 00:17:12.480
tools are getting so much easier to use, so, like,

348
00:17:12.519 --> 00:17:14.880
you know, my background's a filmmaking when I when I

349
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learned filmmaking, I learned on film where you literally have

350
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to imagine what you're doing is going to turn out

351
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a certain way because you'll never see it until the

352
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film is developed. And then when the film is developed,

353
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you have to literally edit it by taping strips together.

354
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Then I went and taught at BU and I taught

355
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on video, and not because I'm a great teacher, but

356
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because video is so quick to be able to see

357
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what you've done. I was able to teach my students

358
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in a week what it took me a year to learn,

359
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you know, I mean, And I just had this moment

360
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where it's like, Wow, everyone's going to be using this stuff.

361
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It's like, there's no way this isn't going to open

362
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up more people being able to use this stuff. And

363
00:17:52.920 --> 00:17:54.680
now we have phones in the pocket. But you know,

364
00:17:54.720 --> 00:17:57.240
you go down the line and tools and other disciplines

365
00:17:57.279 --> 00:17:59.200
are getting easier to use. All the design tools are

366
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getting easier to use, so that gives access to people

367
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who may not have, you know, studied that as their

368
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profession or prepared in that way. So you've got this

369
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access of tools, the opportunities and the overlap, and then

370
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the fact that there's no all the problems are so

371
00:18:13.839 --> 00:18:16.039
intertwined and big that there's no real way to have

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one one person or one discipline do it. It just

373
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kind of you have to work that way. I think,

374
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whether or not you're in a purely interdisciplinary program where

375
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you're just working with another department or another type of thinker,

376
00:18:28.680 --> 00:18:30.799
Like it's just really where things are at now.

377
00:18:31.000 --> 00:18:32.680
Yeah, I agree on hundred percent.

378
00:18:32.759 --> 00:18:35.319
And it's it's interesting too because you know, I'm trained

379
00:18:35.319 --> 00:18:38.279
as anthropologist, but I found my way into design anthropology

380
00:18:38.359 --> 00:18:40.279
both through the research and then and I taught in

381
00:18:40.319 --> 00:18:42.440
a design program for a number of years in Boston also,

382
00:18:43.000 --> 00:18:46.039
and I always love I love the combination. And but

383
00:18:46.039 --> 00:18:47.759
but to that point too, it seems like design was

384
00:18:47.799 --> 00:18:50.440
just one of the fastest and first areas to say, actually,

385
00:18:50.440 --> 00:18:52.400
we have to all talk together if I mean, if

386
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we're gonna make things that are both useful and helpful

387
00:18:54.119 --> 00:18:56.559
and not harmful. I think that's especially the latter part

388
00:18:56.640 --> 00:18:59.000
is the important theme that your book is also helping

389
00:18:59.039 --> 00:18:59.559
us address too.

390
00:18:59.640 --> 00:19:02.640
But did I guess have you all noticed that as well?

391
00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:04.400
In terms of that, there was a I know, there's

392
00:19:04.440 --> 00:19:07.680
a quickness to like the collaborative aspect of design, both

393
00:19:07.720 --> 00:19:10.359
for education and for kind of output. I mean, you know,

394
00:19:10.559 --> 00:19:12.599
I mean part of it, I guess is the you know,

395
00:19:12.680 --> 00:19:15.400
Silicon Valley push and like the excitement entrepreneurship and design

396
00:19:15.440 --> 00:19:17.440
that it's exciting we can make stuff, and that has

397
00:19:17.480 --> 00:19:21.039
to be intradisciplinary by by nature businesses making things.

398
00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:23.319
I think, but I don't know. Curious your perspective on.

399
00:19:23.279 --> 00:19:25.640
This too, and that if you if you saw is

400
00:19:25.680 --> 00:19:27.240
designed first out of the gate or is it just

401
00:19:27.680 --> 00:19:28.200
it did it well.

402
00:19:28.240 --> 00:19:29.240
It's also good at branding right.

403
00:19:29.240 --> 00:19:31.160
Design thinking has been a great way for people to

404
00:19:31.160 --> 00:19:33.519
both love and hate that idea and then try to

405
00:19:33.559 --> 00:19:36.880
kind of push through how we can you can you know,

406
00:19:37.279 --> 00:19:39.200
codify the making making of things? So, I don't know,

407
00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:41.039
I'm curious about this, this perspective that you'll have seen in

408
00:19:41.079 --> 00:19:43.680
terms of where design kind of came from and how

409
00:19:43.720 --> 00:19:45.680
it's it's like, I don't know if it's right in

410
00:19:45.680 --> 00:19:47.720
the wave or making the wave in terms of being

411
00:19:47.720 --> 00:19:48.839
a very collaborative discipline.

412
00:19:49.079 --> 00:19:52.799
It's interesting even thinking of design at Stanford. Stanford's got

413
00:19:52.839 --> 00:19:58.160
one of the older design and from an engineering landscape

414
00:19:58.200 --> 00:20:02.920
focus programs in the US, you know, not I'm not

415
00:20:03.039 --> 00:20:06.200
like putting this up against like a RISDI where they

416
00:20:06.200 --> 00:20:10.880
have like a long history of really being able to

417
00:20:10.920 --> 00:20:13.839
hone in the details of art and design work.

418
00:20:14.680 --> 00:20:16.119
But from an engineering.

419
00:20:15.680 --> 00:20:18.839
Perspective, you know, design at Stanford used to mean mechanical

420
00:20:18.920 --> 00:20:22.359
design and design of mechanisms, right, and then it was

421
00:20:22.880 --> 00:20:26.640
then like the business lens was added into it, and

422
00:20:26.680 --> 00:20:30.359
then the psychology lens was added into it. And there's

423
00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:34.119
something about like the I think maybe you're onto something,

424
00:20:34.200 --> 00:20:38.759
but like maybe there's a willingness amongst designers because it's

425
00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:44.839
really a field of noticing opportunities, noticing gaps but also patterns, right,

426
00:20:44.920 --> 00:20:47.160
and like you have to take in a lot of

427
00:20:47.200 --> 00:20:50.720
ways of looking and a lot of information to notice

428
00:20:50.759 --> 00:20:53.119
those patterns and gaps and then say like, oh, here's

429
00:20:53.119 --> 00:20:56.079
an opportunity. So I think maybe that there's something about

430
00:20:56.119 --> 00:20:59.960
designers that are that are predisposed to that type of thinking.

431
00:21:01.559 --> 00:21:02.640
Also, it's.

432
00:21:04.039 --> 00:21:06.640
For better or for worse in comparison to other disciplines,

433
00:21:06.920 --> 00:21:13.720
like not a field where that like deep, deep scholarship

434
00:21:13.880 --> 00:21:18.480
of the pursuit of truth has been the way that

435
00:21:18.519 --> 00:21:21.039
the field has grown up. Like, for instance, like if

436
00:21:21.079 --> 00:21:25.680
you're gonna be a physicist, right, you're likely like pursuing

437
00:21:25.680 --> 00:21:29.160
that like tiny slips of physics that is your specialty

438
00:21:29.680 --> 00:21:31.880
in building, you know, historically like.

439
00:21:31.880 --> 00:21:34.400
On the works of what has come before, et cetera.

440
00:21:34.759 --> 00:21:36.640
And like a designers are drawing from all over it, right,

441
00:21:36.759 --> 00:21:40.240
it doesn't fit as neatly into one bucket. So I

442
00:21:40.279 --> 00:21:43.519
think like there's something about the discipline itself that has

443
00:21:43.680 --> 00:21:46.759
made it feel this way, And I'd agree that I

444
00:21:46.799 --> 00:21:50.880
think you're seeing that acceptance of interdisciplinarity and like what

445
00:21:50.960 --> 00:21:52.880
you get from all these different fields, Like I think

446
00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:54.000
like that is spreading.

447
00:21:54.319 --> 00:21:59.640
I think the role of humility in design, I think

448
00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:04.720
is way underestimated. Like if you're a practicing designer, I

449
00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:07.400
think the idea is that, like you know, these sort

450
00:22:07.440 --> 00:22:09.759
of rock star designers designs like a bit of an

451
00:22:09.799 --> 00:22:15.039
egotistical art. It is totally humbling, Like you make something

452
00:22:15.079 --> 00:22:18.319
and it does not work the first time, and then

453
00:22:18.400 --> 00:22:20.920
you create something else and it's like it works for

454
00:22:21.640 --> 00:22:23.880
thirty percent but not the other seventy, and then you

455
00:22:23.920 --> 00:22:25.920
get up to the seventy and then the thirty percent

456
00:22:26.039 --> 00:22:28.759
is really not it's not working at all, Like it's

457
00:22:28.839 --> 00:22:32.880
you're just constantly confronted with what you don't know, and

458
00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:35.799
so you start to develop tactics to like figure out

459
00:22:35.839 --> 00:22:38.240
what you don't know. You know, if you're going to

460
00:22:38.279 --> 00:22:39.799
be a good designer, you have to be able to

461
00:22:39.920 --> 00:22:44.440
like recognize that you're ignorant frankly and find ways to

462
00:22:45.000 --> 00:22:47.720
you know, bring people in who understand what you don't,

463
00:22:48.279 --> 00:22:51.279
otherwise it won't work. So like, if you're a practicing designer,

464
00:22:51.319 --> 00:22:54.240
I think you get how humbling it is. And I

465
00:22:54.279 --> 00:22:58.599
think that that humility then forces almost you to collaborate, right,

466
00:22:58.640 --> 00:23:01.960
Like it's just there's no other choice. And so I

467
00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:04.160
think there's like that role of humility. I think it's

468
00:23:04.160 --> 00:23:06.599
like way, way, way underestimated. I don't think it shows

469
00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:09.720
up for some reason, maybe because you're getting humbled so

470
00:23:09.799 --> 00:23:12.039
much you want to pretend like you know what you're

471
00:23:12.079 --> 00:23:15.240
doing something you know, but it's real. And I think

472
00:23:15.240 --> 00:23:17.920
it's an advantage actually because you just you know, you

473
00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:19.960
have to figure it out with other people and try

474
00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:21.440
things out and test and all that.

475
00:23:22.079 --> 00:23:25.160
I love that, and I think that's a great point

476
00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:29.920
in terms of that's a kind of narrative also that

477
00:23:30.759 --> 00:23:32.160
I think the future needs, right or that we need

478
00:23:32.200 --> 00:23:33.839
to be able to tell better right. And then part

479
00:23:33.839 --> 00:23:35.599
of it, I think is because you know, I don't know,

480
00:23:35.640 --> 00:23:38.279
some symptom of hustle culture. I think, right, they're like

481
00:23:38.279 --> 00:23:39.839
get out there and make things and like don't talk

482
00:23:39.880 --> 00:23:42.400
about the chat like I mean, it's social media fined

483
00:23:42.400 --> 00:23:43.920
in terms of like, here's the five awesome things I

484
00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:45.599
made this week, and not the three hundred hours I

485
00:23:45.640 --> 00:23:47.240
spent coding it and with my head banging against the

486
00:23:47.240 --> 00:23:48.680
wall for three.

487
00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:48.960
Months, you know.

488
00:23:50.160 --> 00:23:51.640
But then you know, so I think there's that, But

489
00:23:51.680 --> 00:23:54.039
I think that it's a great point that like actual

490
00:23:54.039 --> 00:23:56.319
makers and actual folks like have a kind of humility,

491
00:23:56.319 --> 00:23:58.839
and especially like you find too with experts with craft,

492
00:23:58.880 --> 00:24:00.519
it's like they're rarely like, look, how awesome I am.

493
00:24:00.519 --> 00:24:02.079
It's more just like I made this thing that I

494
00:24:02.119 --> 00:24:04.160
love or I'm passionate about, and it was actually a

495
00:24:04.200 --> 00:24:06.359
huge pain in the ass to put together. But I'm

496
00:24:06.359 --> 00:24:08.079
really glad that it's here and it's going to break tomorrow,

497
00:24:08.119 --> 00:24:10.680
but I'm glad that it's here today, and there's there's

498
00:24:10.720 --> 00:24:12.200
not a need to kind of prove, you know, in

499
00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:14.839
that regarding that's a really interesting point that I'm also

500
00:24:14.839 --> 00:24:19.519
now reflecting sideways thinking that like, especially with anthropology as

501
00:24:19.559 --> 00:24:23.160
a as a theoretical discipline, primarily that like we're seeing

502
00:24:23.200 --> 00:24:25.319
more it's ironic we say it's a theoretical discipline, but

503
00:24:25.400 --> 00:24:28.000
like seventy percent of the anthropologies actually work outside of academia.

504
00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:28.519
So it's a.

505
00:24:28.519 --> 00:24:31.720
Weird anyway, also a weird story, but there's this this

506
00:24:31.759 --> 00:24:34.480
other kind of funny point of that, you know, even

507
00:24:34.519 --> 00:24:36.519
when you're trying to make something like a theoretical contribution,

508
00:24:36.759 --> 00:24:38.640
which I think it also agree is super important for

509
00:24:38.680 --> 00:24:42.200
how we can then both understand disciplinary interested plenty thinking,

510
00:24:42.200 --> 00:24:46.119
but then also helping us understand the world requires humility too, right,

511
00:24:46.240 --> 00:24:48.880
It's like we can't really have kind of hubris all the.

512
00:24:48.839 --> 00:24:50.400
Time with it.

513
00:24:50.440 --> 00:24:52.880
What's interesting is something that else a colleagues and I

514
00:24:53.119 --> 00:24:56.440
where we did this kind of speculative fiction exercise at

515
00:24:56.480 --> 00:24:58.240
a conference earlier this year, and it reminded me kind

516
00:24:58.240 --> 00:25:00.799
of some of the stories work that you do and

517
00:25:01.000 --> 00:25:02.359
talk about the book too, and I probably took it

518
00:25:02.400 --> 00:25:03.440
back to the book to and I know we're kind

519
00:25:03.440 --> 00:25:04.359
of like circuitting around.

520
00:25:05.480 --> 00:25:07.559
It's all connected, right, you know.

521
00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:09.799
But one of the things that we were working with

522
00:25:09.799 --> 00:25:11.920
this was this speculative idea in terms of like what

523
00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:16.519
if social science disciplines and we included design thinking in this.

524
00:25:16.640 --> 00:25:18.400
In this process of design design.

525
00:25:18.480 --> 00:25:22.480
As a as A as a friend field had more

526
00:25:22.559 --> 00:25:25.960
kind of societal power to shape institutions in fifty years.

527
00:25:25.960 --> 00:25:27.160
And let's pretend that is the case.

528
00:25:27.200 --> 00:25:30.160
And so let's then work backwards from that and figure out, hey,

529
00:25:30.200 --> 00:25:31.480
what does it looked like in that future, and then

530
00:25:31.559 --> 00:25:33.400
let's come and work backwards of how we got there.

531
00:25:34.160 --> 00:25:36.359
And it was a really interesting.

532
00:25:36.039 --> 00:25:38.599
Exercise because we kind of up sprung it on people,

533
00:25:39.200 --> 00:25:40.319
and then it was kind of cool to say, you

534
00:25:40.359 --> 00:25:42.720
can take an institution like government or education and then

535
00:25:43.039 --> 00:25:45.640
tell us where we are in fifty years with anthropologists

536
00:25:45.640 --> 00:25:48.599
and designers running the companies, and then go backwards and

537
00:25:48.599 --> 00:25:49.960
then how we got there and like what some of

538
00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:52.000
those pieces were. And one of the themes that kind

539
00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:54.319
of came out a lot was both this like deep

540
00:25:54.440 --> 00:25:58.200
understanding of interconnectivity between different areas and disciplines, but also

541
00:25:58.279 --> 00:26:01.079
this importance of locality, right, and that we are all

542
00:26:01.200 --> 00:26:04.079
im placed and embodied somewhere. We don't all just exist

543
00:26:04.079 --> 00:26:07.400
out in like the nebulous institution that we often you know,

544
00:26:07.640 --> 00:26:10.559
get told that we are either on uh, you know,

545
00:26:10.640 --> 00:26:13.519
some media channels or just in general just okay, it's

546
00:26:13.559 --> 00:26:15.839
the we get masked as groups of people, right, but

547
00:26:16.039 --> 00:26:17.559
we're all individuals and we have.

548
00:26:19.039 --> 00:26:21.079
Bodies that were in certain places in certain times.

549
00:26:21.079 --> 00:26:22.839
And it's like this interesting idea of how do we

550
00:26:22.880 --> 00:26:25.240
think about the stories that are helpful for us and

551
00:26:25.279 --> 00:26:28.160
which ones are not. And the one thing that I

552
00:26:28.160 --> 00:26:30.440
thought was really interesting that you all said in the book,

553
00:26:30.519 --> 00:26:32.680
and Scott, I'll start with you in this question, is

554
00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:36.880
that you both said that like all design begins as.

555
00:26:36.759 --> 00:26:37.359
Fictions, right.

556
00:26:37.400 --> 00:26:40.039
I think it's a really interesting idea both bringing us

557
00:26:40.039 --> 00:26:41.960
to the I think a great idea of a humility

558
00:26:42.039 --> 00:26:44.319
question there too when we think of this. And so

559
00:26:44.359 --> 00:26:47.680
I'm kind of curious in your perspective on one hand,

560
00:26:47.680 --> 00:26:49.599
like how does your experience with storytelling right through film

561
00:26:49.599 --> 00:26:51.720
through through other kinds of media as well, like kind

562
00:26:51.759 --> 00:26:53.480
of a shape the way you think about design and

563
00:26:53.720 --> 00:26:57.359
this idea that narrative and storytelling and design go well

564
00:26:57.400 --> 00:27:01.480
together and are necessary for us to think about what

565
00:27:01.519 --> 00:27:04.039
we want to either ask questions about or where the

566
00:27:04.039 --> 00:27:04.880
future might take us.

567
00:27:05.480 --> 00:27:07.960
Yeah, that's a lot of that is in a chapter

568
00:27:08.039 --> 00:27:10.559
we call make Believe, which is one of our intangibles,

569
00:27:10.599 --> 00:27:12.519
which are the things that are hard to see but

570
00:27:12.599 --> 00:27:15.640
actually are very influential. And I will say, first off

571
00:27:15.759 --> 00:27:18.839
is just design is two thirds make believe, right, Like

572
00:27:18.920 --> 00:27:21.720
you have to kind of let your mind imagine what

573
00:27:21.880 --> 00:27:25.759
could be and that frankly and I would say I

574
00:27:25.759 --> 00:27:28.640
would say anthropology has this as well, but I'd be

575
00:27:28.920 --> 00:27:30.839
up for disagreement if you don't think so. But like

576
00:27:31.079 --> 00:27:34.119
there's a naive tay to it right, and make believe

577
00:27:34.240 --> 00:27:38.359
is kind of dangerous or vulnerable because you have to

578
00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:40.759
go in and say things that are may not fit.

579
00:27:40.799 --> 00:27:43.359
They might be stupid, they might be out there saying.

580
00:27:43.359 --> 00:27:45.640
With anthropology, you're kind of recognize things in a way

581
00:27:45.640 --> 00:27:47.799
that other people haven't talked about them yet. Maybe you're

582
00:27:47.799 --> 00:27:50.000
trying to describe it in a way that it hasn't

583
00:27:50.039 --> 00:27:52.640
been described. So you're putting yourself out there all the time.

584
00:27:53.319 --> 00:27:56.160
But that first step of make believe then allows something

585
00:27:56.200 --> 00:27:59.839
that doesn't exist to have a path to become real,

586
00:28:00.200 --> 00:28:02.559
and generally, like the further out there you get. I

587
00:28:02.599 --> 00:28:04.960
think of you know, the world as having this sort

588
00:28:04.960 --> 00:28:08.799
of gravity that pulls you down to normal. You know,

589
00:28:08.920 --> 00:28:11.839
like whatever you do, eventually it's going to land or

590
00:28:11.880 --> 00:28:14.119
it's just going to float off into space. So the

591
00:28:14.200 --> 00:28:18.519
ability to follow something further allows you to get a

592
00:28:18.559 --> 00:28:20.680
little bit further in terms of what you're creating. So

593
00:28:20.720 --> 00:28:22.279
if you can make believe in a big way, you're

594
00:28:22.319 --> 00:28:24.559
going to get further in reality. But then at the

595
00:28:24.559 --> 00:28:28.000
same time, a narrative is really important because it allows

596
00:28:28.000 --> 00:28:30.880
you to get into a level of detail, like the

597
00:28:30.920 --> 00:28:32.799
story that you were talking about at that conference.

598
00:28:32.839 --> 00:28:33.400
I love that.

599
00:28:33.519 --> 00:28:35.799
So you went, you went, and you got to the assumption,

600
00:28:36.559 --> 00:28:39.000
and then you're pulling back what's the history that got

601
00:28:39.079 --> 00:28:41.759
us there? And that's the interesting part is like what

602
00:28:41.920 --> 00:28:43.720
has to happen to make that happen? And does it

603
00:28:43.799 --> 00:28:46.240
happen well? And you get into a level of detail

604
00:28:46.279 --> 00:28:49.599
that's so far beyond just like a metaphor or a

605
00:28:49.640 --> 00:28:52.000
speculation or just saying like well, what if this is

606
00:28:52.279 --> 00:28:53.960
going to happen or the future would be great if

607
00:28:53.960 --> 00:28:55.880
blah blah blah. You have to get into a level

608
00:28:55.880 --> 00:28:57.640
of detail which gets you into the day to day.

609
00:28:57.680 --> 00:28:59.480
It gets you into a level of function, It gets

610
00:28:59.519 --> 00:29:02.920
you into the pass gating impacts, like the second order effects.

611
00:29:03.279 --> 00:29:06.519
So really, I think make believe in narrative are actually

612
00:29:06.799 --> 00:29:09.759
under you know. You think when I say make believe,

613
00:29:09.799 --> 00:29:13.200
it sounds like something kids do, right, But actually this

614
00:29:13.400 --> 00:29:15.759
is how we get beyond where we are, you.

615
00:29:15.720 --> 00:29:18.440
Know, Yeah, And it's it's I think it's a great point.

616
00:29:18.440 --> 00:29:19.079
And I love that.

617
00:29:19.119 --> 00:29:22.279
I did too, and I agree that it's it's a

618
00:29:22.319 --> 00:29:25.759
fundamental part of how we make sense of our world, right,

619
00:29:25.880 --> 00:29:27.240
is that it's because on the one hand, it's like

620
00:29:27.279 --> 00:29:28.759
all stories are made up, they're all make believe, but

621
00:29:28.759 --> 00:29:30.599
at the same time they're also true, you know, and

622
00:29:30.640 --> 00:29:32.599
there's there's manily there's truth to them, but it's not

623
00:29:32.640 --> 00:29:34.799
that they're not straight up, you know, factually correct. But

624
00:29:35.759 --> 00:29:37.400
on the one hand too, when it comes to narratives

625
00:29:37.480 --> 00:29:39.359
right as a as a directive in the way of

626
00:29:39.400 --> 00:29:41.079
kind of helping shape how we can tell the stories,

627
00:29:41.079 --> 00:29:42.279
I think I think you said that really well, it's

628
00:29:42.279 --> 00:29:46.000
an important point about getting us further right. And this

629
00:29:46.079 --> 00:29:48.559
is something that I worked in corporate research for years

630
00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:52.160
and in that looking at at consumer I guess consumer

631
00:29:52.200 --> 00:29:54.200
insights and foresights and using kind of big data and

632
00:29:54.240 --> 00:29:55.000
ethnography plandet.

633
00:29:55.079 --> 00:29:55.319
Together.

634
00:29:55.400 --> 00:29:58.079
Then something that really stood out to me is when

635
00:29:58.119 --> 00:30:01.559
we were doing research for entertainment company, they were asking us,

636
00:30:01.559 --> 00:30:03.920
you know, what's the future of entertainment in consumer mindsets?

637
00:30:03.920 --> 00:30:05.319
Like how are folks talking about it online? Kind of

638
00:30:05.319 --> 00:30:05.799
the kind of thing.

639
00:30:06.279 --> 00:30:08.000
And one of the things that really stood out was that,

640
00:30:08.039 --> 00:30:09.839
you know, it's fun to see what movies and TV

641
00:30:09.920 --> 00:30:12.839
shows and stuff folks are talking about. But there was

642
00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:15.119
a recognition like happening kind of at the level of

643
00:30:15.400 --> 00:30:19.319
kind of cultural conversation that what stories were told will

644
00:30:19.400 --> 00:30:21.480
shape and limit also what we think is possible.

645
00:30:21.640 --> 00:30:22.480
And so if we're.

646
00:30:22.319 --> 00:30:26.400
Only ever told the terminator and matrix narrative dystopics of

647
00:30:26.440 --> 00:30:28.279
that's what AI is, then that's what people are going

648
00:30:28.319 --> 00:30:30.559
to think it is, you know, and even if it

649
00:30:30.400 --> 00:30:32.960
doesn't doesn't come to fruition, like, that's still this conversational

650
00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:35.920
point and it was kind of cool to recognize that

651
00:30:36.039 --> 00:30:38.240
there's there's that awareness there too, that like we both

652
00:30:38.319 --> 00:30:41.119
need more than one kind of story, and that also

653
00:30:41.319 --> 00:30:43.759
we understand that the stories that we tell do shape

654
00:30:43.759 --> 00:30:46.240
how we approach what we think is possible, you know,

655
00:30:46.279 --> 00:30:48.599
what we can do. And that's that's an important point,

656
00:30:48.640 --> 00:30:51.000
I think because kind of as you'all tackle also in

657
00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:53.599
the book too, is that this kind of noticing takes

658
00:30:53.640 --> 00:30:55.319
work right. It's an important and it's a difficult thing

659
00:30:55.359 --> 00:30:57.640
to think about and see these intangibles of these these

660
00:30:57.720 --> 00:31:00.799
like you know, forces that kind of shape how like

661
00:31:01.359 --> 00:31:04.039
the affordances of what's possible, but also what's able or

662
00:31:04.039 --> 00:31:06.799
to be able to think, and and also you know

663
00:31:06.839 --> 00:31:08.960
whether their physical material constraints, whether there are kind of

664
00:31:08.960 --> 00:31:11.599
a cultural norm and or there's only so much oxygen

665
00:31:11.599 --> 00:31:13.759
in the atmosphere, you know. So it's like all these

666
00:31:13.759 --> 00:31:15.319
things that we can't see, but they're going to shape

667
00:31:15.319 --> 00:31:18.839
what we can do in that design space. But we

668
00:31:18.920 --> 00:31:20.400
need we need to kind of be more aware of

669
00:31:20.400 --> 00:31:23.519
that as we go forward. And so I'm kind of curious,

670
00:31:23.640 --> 00:31:26.680
like as we think about this. You know, another story

671
00:31:26.680 --> 00:31:28.160
that stood out to me was the kind of Apple

672
00:31:28.200 --> 00:31:30.839
and Amazon one. You know, again, all these like are

673
00:31:30.880 --> 00:31:32.839
a little bit little, which I love, and also I'm

674
00:31:32.880 --> 00:31:35.160
terrified of like you know, they're they're black mirror ish

675
00:31:35.160 --> 00:31:38.119
because they're like again, they're understandable. Some of them is

676
00:31:38.279 --> 00:31:39.720
parts of them are existing now and other of us

677
00:31:39.759 --> 00:31:42.319
are taking us in these weird arenas of what what

678
00:31:42.400 --> 00:31:45.440
could be, you know, but it's like we often don't recognize.

679
00:31:45.880 --> 00:31:47.119
To your point, I think it's something that can you

680
00:31:47.400 --> 00:31:49.160
cover really well across the book, is that we don't

681
00:31:49.480 --> 00:31:52.119
often see those potential consequences as the potential ripples, right,

682
00:31:52.119 --> 00:31:54.160
and so these intangibles because they're as we're saying, they're

683
00:31:54.160 --> 00:31:54.559
hard to see.

684
00:31:54.599 --> 00:31:56.319
So I want to like think about that, how do

685
00:31:56.359 --> 00:31:57.440
we you know, you.

686
00:31:57.400 --> 00:31:59.680
Know, take a what sounds familiar, like they do have

687
00:31:59.720 --> 00:32:02.000
a cut that sounds familiar to us, but like you

688
00:32:02.319 --> 00:32:04.039
kind of break it down slightly a different way, and

689
00:32:04.079 --> 00:32:06.119
so walk us through that idea of like how do

690
00:32:06.160 --> 00:32:08.920
these like seemingly small actions that may don't feel like

691
00:32:08.920 --> 00:32:12.640
they're connected actually kind of super far reaching consequences. I'm

692
00:32:12.640 --> 00:32:14.119
not going to say, butterfly if like I just did

693
00:32:14.119 --> 00:32:16.839
I guess pretend I didn't, But you know, how do

694
00:32:16.880 --> 00:32:18.400
we think about that this idea of connections in a

695
00:32:18.440 --> 00:32:18.759
new way?

696
00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:21.480
Well, connection, I mean connections as a whole in a

697
00:32:21.480 --> 00:32:23.279
new way. Maybe I'll talk about connections as a whole

698
00:32:23.319 --> 00:32:24.960
in new way and then lob it to Scott to

699
00:32:24.960 --> 00:32:27.160
give us some more detail about Apple and the Amazon.

700
00:32:27.680 --> 00:32:37.920
But we think of everything from data to technology to products, experiences, systems,

701
00:32:37.960 --> 00:32:43.079
and then the implications both you know, intended and unintended

702
00:32:43.079 --> 00:32:48.200
consequences of our work as all being highly intertwined and

703
00:32:49.119 --> 00:32:53.920
essentially meaning like I'm holding a can of sparkling water

704
00:32:54.039 --> 00:32:58.000
here and I could this is a physical product, but

705
00:32:58.799 --> 00:33:01.599
you know, and it has graphic design on it, and

706
00:33:01.960 --> 00:33:06.799
it creates this like experience of refreshment for me, right,

707
00:33:06.880 --> 00:33:11.480
Like somebody designed the experience of like opening it. There's

708
00:33:11.559 --> 00:33:16.240
many systems that involved in both like getting the aluminum

709
00:33:16.319 --> 00:33:20.440
of the can, the water within it, the distribution of

710
00:33:20.519 --> 00:33:22.920
these cans around. Like, there's so many systems that went

711
00:33:22.960 --> 00:33:27.920
into giving this moment to me. There's the technology of

712
00:33:27.960 --> 00:33:30.480
like how the pop top on a can works that

713
00:33:30.640 --> 00:33:33.200
was designed that's being used here, and even like the

714
00:33:33.240 --> 00:33:36.400
size of it so that they nest neatly within each

715
00:33:36.440 --> 00:33:40.079
other and within stores without toppling over. And then there's

716
00:33:40.119 --> 00:33:42.359
like data that went into it too, both in terms

717
00:33:42.400 --> 00:33:45.480
of like what size should it be for consumption and

718
00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:49.720
to price it correctly for consumers, but then also like

719
00:33:50.279 --> 00:33:54.680
it fits quite nicely in an adult hand. You know,

720
00:33:54.759 --> 00:33:57.160
if this was huge, I wouldn't be able to hold it.

721
00:33:58.000 --> 00:34:00.440
And you could also propagate that out to like if

722
00:34:00.440 --> 00:34:06.039
you had any sort of you know, disability that prevented

723
00:34:06.079 --> 00:34:09.920
you from holding something right, like, you wouldn't be included

724
00:34:09.960 --> 00:34:14.400
in this. So like there's implications both you know, for

725
00:34:15.440 --> 00:34:19.360
the experience of drinking all the way to like how

726
00:34:19.400 --> 00:34:21.719
this company makes money off of this all the way

727
00:34:21.760 --> 00:34:25.800
to like who's not able to participate in using this

728
00:34:25.880 --> 00:34:27.840
product or not? Right, And so you can do that

729
00:34:27.920 --> 00:34:33.719
kind of extension of interconnectivity for absolutely anything, and that's

730
00:34:33.760 --> 00:34:39.920
what's both like wild, but also you can't your your

731
00:34:39.960 --> 00:34:43.960
work never is never just your work. It's always affecting things,

732
00:34:44.039 --> 00:34:47.280
even if that wasn't part of your directive or your intention.

733
00:34:48.880 --> 00:34:50.880
And the Apple story, Scott, I'll let you tell more

734
00:34:50.920 --> 00:34:53.559
about it, but that really brings that to life in

735
00:34:53.639 --> 00:34:55.960
a like one click forward from today.

736
00:34:55.719 --> 00:34:59.400
Way, and it's about how data connects to everything now

737
00:34:59.519 --> 00:35:02.800
and how the flow of data kind of changes the

738
00:35:02.840 --> 00:35:05.199
flow of our society. So, you know, we're in Silicon

739
00:35:05.320 --> 00:35:07.960
Valley and you know, I go down to visit some

740
00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:10.880
of these larger companies. They have their own bus lines,

741
00:35:11.000 --> 00:35:13.039
you know, so you're down that there's one in particular

742
00:35:13.079 --> 00:35:15.559
where you're in the bottom level and it feels like

743
00:35:15.599 --> 00:35:18.679
you're in a bus depot, like Grand Social station. It's

744
00:35:18.719 --> 00:35:21.039
just like buses coming in and dropping people off. And

745
00:35:21.079 --> 00:35:23.559
then of course they've got daycare. And then they're actually

746
00:35:23.639 --> 00:35:27.119
building housing, but not just housing for people who work there,

747
00:35:27.119 --> 00:35:30.519
but low income housing for the neighborhood. So data has

748
00:35:31.280 --> 00:35:36.800
created these really really mega corporations. These are the most wealthy,

749
00:35:36.960 --> 00:35:39.960
you know, like Apple as an example, the most wealthy

750
00:35:40.360 --> 00:35:45.280
corporations ever to exist ever by a lot, and that

751
00:35:45.360 --> 00:35:47.719
then puts them in a situation where like they're starting

752
00:35:47.719 --> 00:35:50.800
to become responsible for things that only government could do.

753
00:35:50.840 --> 00:35:53.280
We talked about scale earlier, and like it used to

754
00:35:53.320 --> 00:35:57.840
be that, like you know, rockets going to space was

755
00:35:57.840 --> 00:36:02.599
a government thing, was a government thing. Bus lines were

756
00:36:02.599 --> 00:36:06.039
a government thing. You know, all this stuff was really

757
00:36:06.400 --> 00:36:08.480
only could only be done at the scale of government.

758
00:36:08.519 --> 00:36:11.519
So this data flow is actually like putting corporations in

759
00:36:11.559 --> 00:36:15.679
the territory of responsibility, that's overseeing the public good. And

760
00:36:15.760 --> 00:36:19.079
so in the story, Apple, which is now worth nine

761
00:36:19.199 --> 00:36:22.519
trillion in you know, whatever time this story takes place,

762
00:36:23.159 --> 00:36:26.719
decides that it needs to save the Amazon rainforest to

763
00:36:26.960 --> 00:36:29.440
save its customer base so that it can you know,

764
00:36:29.480 --> 00:36:32.119
stave off climate change. And then so it starts with

765
00:36:32.159 --> 00:36:34.119
these drones that are down in the forest trying to

766
00:36:34.119 --> 00:36:37.239
survey the forest. But there's a there's a thing there

767
00:36:37.239 --> 00:36:41.159
where it's like, yeah, that that's not that outlandish, that

768
00:36:41.639 --> 00:36:44.519
it might be cost effective for them to do something

769
00:36:44.559 --> 00:36:49.000
like that at some point, which just seems different. You know,

770
00:36:49.119 --> 00:36:51.000
We're just trying to point like things shift and they

771
00:36:51.039 --> 00:36:53.880
get different, and when they get different. They're different now,

772
00:36:53.920 --> 00:36:56.360
you know, and now you know those companies not only

773
00:36:57.400 --> 00:36:59.880
have to take on that responsibility, but then we have

774
00:36:59.920 --> 00:37:02.400
to trust them with that responsibility. And is that how

775
00:37:02.440 --> 00:37:05.559
we want our trust to be placed? I'm not I'm

776
00:37:05.639 --> 00:37:08.079
nothing against the corporations. It's just like, is that where

777
00:37:08.119 --> 00:37:11.039
we want the trust, where it's interconnected to these certain

778
00:37:11.599 --> 00:37:13.800
you know, business needs that they have to have or

779
00:37:14.039 --> 00:37:16.039
or do they even want that responsibility?

780
00:37:16.199 --> 00:37:16.400
You know?

781
00:37:17.079 --> 00:37:20.119
And it's it's an interesting thing that's already happening, but

782
00:37:20.280 --> 00:37:21.639
this is an extreme example.

783
00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:24.960
Yeah, but also kind of like what you're saying there

784
00:37:25.000 --> 00:37:27.320
too is that it's it's both extreme and not that extreme,

785
00:37:27.360 --> 00:37:28.840
which is the which is kind of a crazy point,

786
00:37:28.880 --> 00:37:30.639
right when you say, Okay, it's actually that's not that's

787
00:37:30.679 --> 00:37:34.119
the logical three steps from here, and that raises important questions.

788
00:37:34.119 --> 00:37:36.199
I mean it's interesting too because it's like you know,

789
00:37:36.280 --> 00:37:37.800
we've i think for for a long time.

790
00:37:37.920 --> 00:37:38.079
You know.

791
00:37:38.119 --> 00:37:40.199
That's that's in part of in terms of like what

792
00:37:40.280 --> 00:37:43.000
is our responsibility as as citizens? Right, you kind of

793
00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:45.679
saw these interesting intermingling stories like Idea has been talking

794
00:37:45.679 --> 00:37:47.440
about this for years in terms of like helping resigned

795
00:37:47.480 --> 00:37:49.840
voting systems right or kind of helping school education systems

796
00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:52.440
in the US and other countries. And we see frogmy

797
00:37:52.440 --> 00:37:53.880
and I know D School has done a ton of

798
00:37:54.000 --> 00:37:56.519
projects and work around this area too, And so it

799
00:37:56.559 --> 00:38:00.000
is this interesting question too of uh, where does responc

800
00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:01.840
onssibility lie for this this kind of work?

801
00:38:01.960 --> 00:38:03.079
And you know, part.

802
00:38:02.880 --> 00:38:05.519
Of it, I think this interesting challenge also that that

803
00:38:05.679 --> 00:38:09.079
y'all tackle in the book too, is this idea of

804
00:38:09.079 --> 00:38:11.039
like how do we both be aware of these kinds

805
00:38:11.039 --> 00:38:13.079
of dynamics of responsibility, like you know, and where does

806
00:38:13.079 --> 00:38:14.880
tech and power and data and how did these pieces

807
00:38:15.239 --> 00:38:18.519
play together? But then how do we make responsible choices?

808
00:38:18.519 --> 00:38:20.880
But then also how do we help things bigger than

809
00:38:20.880 --> 00:38:22.519
ourselves also make responsible choices?

810
00:38:22.599 --> 00:38:23.880
Right? Because it's one of those.

811
00:38:23.920 --> 00:38:25.920
Things too that you know, we see it and pick

812
00:38:25.960 --> 00:38:28.000
any consumer survey right now, and it's like there's a

813
00:38:28.559 --> 00:38:31.440
there's a concern that like recycling just gets lobbied onto me.

814
00:38:31.480 --> 00:38:32.800
It's like I've got I'm the one that has to

815
00:38:32.840 --> 00:38:34.519
then take care of like all the end of end

816
00:38:34.519 --> 00:38:37.320
of the last mile products, right, and that point it's

817
00:38:37.320 --> 00:38:39.559
like up to me to kind of reduce and recycle

818
00:38:39.679 --> 00:38:42.840
when my neighborhood doesn't even recycle, and so stop putting

819
00:38:42.840 --> 00:38:44.239
plastic in my products, you know, And this kind of

820
00:38:44.280 --> 00:38:46.000
interesting conversation where it's like, well, who's is it?

821
00:38:46.039 --> 00:38:48.039
Procter and gamblers? It me like how do we do this?

822
00:38:48.119 --> 00:38:50.039
Or maybe it's it's obviously somewhere in between, but like

823
00:38:50.480 --> 00:38:52.840
this this interesting challenge point, like how do we think

824
00:38:52.880 --> 00:38:56.880
about this idea of responsibility? And then the ongoing role

825
00:38:56.920 --> 00:38:58.480
of data as part of that too is becoming such

826
00:38:58.519 --> 00:39:01.920
an interesting piece, right, like to see surveillance, but then

827
00:39:01.960 --> 00:39:05.559
also even these notions of like how do we think

828
00:39:05.599 --> 00:39:06.239
about what.

829
00:39:06.119 --> 00:39:07.480
We should have and what do we want? Right?

830
00:39:07.519 --> 00:39:09.480
And it's interesting to see Apple kind of even today

831
00:39:09.480 --> 00:39:11.360
talk about like privacy, they see it, they talk about

832
00:39:11.360 --> 00:39:13.159
as a human right. It's this kind of fundamental piece

833
00:39:13.199 --> 00:39:15.199
and it's an interesting question when they have a partnership

834
00:39:15.199 --> 00:39:18.599
with open Ai now that to bring GPT to iPhones

835
00:39:18.639 --> 00:39:20.679
and it's like, you know, okay, you may not use

836
00:39:20.719 --> 00:39:22.840
my data for training data. However, like what else have

837
00:39:22.880 --> 00:39:24.480
I opted into that I'm thinking about this that I

838
00:39:24.519 --> 00:39:27.360
just said yes to using an app or you know

839
00:39:27.400 --> 00:39:30.559
that that is actually already watching everything as part of that,

840
00:39:30.599 --> 00:39:33.800
and so I'm kind of bouncing here between the idea

841
00:39:33.800 --> 00:39:36.599
of like thinking about responsibility for what we design and

842
00:39:36.639 --> 00:39:38.840
then the what we want to get out of stuff,

843
00:39:38.880 --> 00:39:40.679
And part of that is like this emotional piece, and

844
00:39:40.679 --> 00:39:42.280
there's something else that's really interesting. I want to I

845
00:39:42.320 --> 00:39:43.679
want to kind of talk a little bit about it.

846
00:39:43.599 --> 00:39:46.360
Is like circumstances, feelings, ideas loop that we kind of

847
00:39:46.360 --> 00:39:49.280
find ourselves into, and that like emotional design. We see

848
00:39:49.320 --> 00:39:51.000
it talked about a little bit more, but it's not

849
00:39:51.000 --> 00:39:52.480
something that we talk about a lot. And that's an

850
00:39:52.480 --> 00:39:54.519
interesting piece, Like we'll see user experience that you actually

851
00:39:54.559 --> 00:39:57.440
kind of talk about making the experience of a website

852
00:39:57.519 --> 00:39:59.960
or like an app better, which is good. And then

853
00:40:00.119 --> 00:40:01.639
Chris what you're saying before too, they're like even when

854
00:40:01.679 --> 00:40:04.320
you have achanic, there was an experience designed around like

855
00:40:04.599 --> 00:40:07.239
the pop tab and the sound and that the colors

856
00:40:07.239 --> 00:40:10.199
and so there's all these pieces. So I'm curious like

857
00:40:10.519 --> 00:40:13.239
how emotions like influence our design decisions, but then also

858
00:40:13.280 --> 00:40:15.559
like why do they feel like they're so often overlooked

859
00:40:15.800 --> 00:40:17.599
when we're talking about design, Like how did you guys

860
00:40:17.599 --> 00:40:19.519
at tackle this this idea?

861
00:40:20.159 --> 00:40:21.199
How can we tackle the idea?

862
00:40:21.199 --> 00:40:24.119
I guess, yeah, I mean, the main thing is, I

863
00:40:24.440 --> 00:40:29.159
think emotions have gotten factored into design from like the experience,

864
00:40:29.360 --> 00:40:32.159
the end user experience part of it, right, like as

865
00:40:32.159 --> 00:40:34.440
a way to you know, sell it or make it

866
00:40:34.480 --> 00:40:39.400
more enjoyable. But really the core thing is that emotions

867
00:40:39.480 --> 00:40:42.559
dictate almost everything we do. So there's a lot of

868
00:40:42.599 --> 00:40:48.000
research about how emotions focus your attention, they trigger decisions,

869
00:40:48.559 --> 00:40:50.280
and they motivate you to do things.

870
00:40:50.519 --> 00:40:50.760
Right.

871
00:40:50.800 --> 00:40:55.119
So, like, as a creator, I'm being motivated by first

872
00:40:55.159 --> 00:40:58.119
of all, I'm focusing on something by my emotions. Then

873
00:40:58.159 --> 00:41:00.559
I'm motivated to do something, and then it shaping the

874
00:41:00.599 --> 00:41:03.400
decision that I make. So the role that they play

875
00:41:03.599 --> 00:41:05.920
and the role that we give them are totally different.

876
00:41:05.960 --> 00:41:09.079
It's way more out of an outsized influence than we think.

877
00:41:09.320 --> 00:41:11.760
So that's on the designer hand and then on the

878
00:41:12.039 --> 00:41:15.079
you know, receiving end of that. The Internet, as an example,

879
00:41:15.320 --> 00:41:18.599
was really created as a way to move information quickly, right,

880
00:41:18.639 --> 00:41:22.039
and it's great at that, but as we know that

881
00:41:22.119 --> 00:41:25.880
quick movement of information is overloading our emotional systems, you know,

882
00:41:25.960 --> 00:41:28.360
like social media has turned into kind of just this

883
00:41:28.599 --> 00:41:33.880
outrage machine. You know, there's a tagline where enragement equals engagement,

884
00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:36.360
you know, and that's part of So it's not that

885
00:41:37.119 --> 00:41:41.320
we're not then the emotions are baked in, but we're

886
00:41:41.360 --> 00:41:45.880
not really grappling with like how important that is and

887
00:41:45.920 --> 00:41:48.760
how profound it is in how we relate to each

888
00:41:48.800 --> 00:41:51.880
other and who we are as a society. And even

889
00:41:51.880 --> 00:41:55.599
the companies that were so like YouTube's famous for really

890
00:41:55.719 --> 00:41:59.119
creating an algorithm that would keep you held right, like

891
00:41:59.159 --> 00:42:02.159
they had engaged hours as the goal, right, that was

892
00:42:02.199 --> 00:42:04.760
the metric, and then the algorithm would just be like, well,

893
00:42:04.800 --> 00:42:06.800
whatever engages them more, I'm going to serve up more

894
00:42:06.840 --> 00:42:09.400
of that. And they've actually done a pretty good job

895
00:42:09.440 --> 00:42:12.840
of taking that, tamping that down over the last five years.

896
00:42:13.440 --> 00:42:16.400
But five years previously, it was just like they weren't

897
00:42:16.440 --> 00:42:18.840
even thinking about it. It's just like the let's let

898
00:42:18.840 --> 00:42:22.880
the algorithm adjust to whatever engagement is. But if you

899
00:42:22.960 --> 00:42:26.239
know that engagement is an over emotional reaction and you

900
00:42:26.360 --> 00:42:29.440
know that that's not great, then you know that should

901
00:42:29.440 --> 00:42:32.000
be factoring into the design, which eventually it has. But

902
00:42:32.119 --> 00:42:33.960
it took a minute, right for us to realize that,

903
00:42:34.039 --> 00:42:35.119
or for folks to realize that.

904
00:42:35.360 --> 00:42:37.719
Yeah, it's interesting piece because it's like it on the

905
00:42:37.760 --> 00:42:42.920
one hand, raises questions about what's the point of like

906
00:42:43.000 --> 00:42:45.159
being aware of emotions, you know, for a company. But

907
00:42:45.159 --> 00:42:47.159
then the other tide is like what's their their kind

908
00:42:47.159 --> 00:42:49.039
of question? The profit moment, which we talked about with

909
00:42:49.119 --> 00:42:52.039
Apple too, I think is an important point of like, yeah,

910
00:42:52.119 --> 00:42:53.800
if we're having our outrage machine, I think is the

911
00:42:53.840 --> 00:42:55.239
right description there of.

912
00:42:54.880 --> 00:42:56.920
Most social media.

913
00:42:57.039 --> 00:42:59.280
And something that that had me thinking about too is

914
00:43:00.320 --> 00:43:02.199
on the one hand, trust, like we often don't trust

915
00:43:02.239 --> 00:43:04.480
these organizations. We trust them to do what we think

916
00:43:04.519 --> 00:43:06.280
they're gonna do, which is keep us online longer, which

917
00:43:06.280 --> 00:43:08.880
is not not maybe what our own self interest, your

918
00:43:08.920 --> 00:43:11.199
goals are, right, and so so I think part of

919
00:43:11.199 --> 00:43:14.159
it is is that question too and the other side

920
00:43:14.320 --> 00:43:16.320
and this isn't fused across a lot of most of

921
00:43:16.360 --> 00:43:18.039
your stories that I also liked, and you mentioned this

922
00:43:18.119 --> 00:43:21.039
up top two is just like the connections and relations

923
00:43:21.039 --> 00:43:23.280
between people, right, as part of that's obviously a huge

924
00:43:23.320 --> 00:43:25.239
emotional driver too, right, and that's social media is basically

925
00:43:25.280 --> 00:43:29.239
just a disconnected form of emotional connection between people, amplified and.

926
00:43:29.360 --> 00:43:30.039
Weird ways, you know.

927
00:43:30.440 --> 00:43:33.079
But it's like ir relationality is a huge piece of

928
00:43:33.119 --> 00:43:36.440
how of how y'all explore and talk about what the

929
00:43:36.440 --> 00:43:39.039
future could be. And so I'm kind of curious about this,

930
00:43:39.039 --> 00:43:40.840
this process to exire. I thought, this is really powerful

931
00:43:40.880 --> 00:43:43.599
and in an important way. I mean even I'm thinking

932
00:43:43.639 --> 00:43:46.719
of the story of the the you know, resurrected Mom

933
00:43:47.239 --> 00:43:49.440
that like the siblings get in a fight over, you know,

934
00:43:49.480 --> 00:43:51.679
in terms of because they change the version of Mom,

935
00:43:51.719 --> 00:43:54.360
which is a crazy idea to think about, right that, like, hey,

936
00:43:54.360 --> 00:43:56.599
this is what's what Mom one point two? No, no,

937
00:43:56.719 --> 00:43:58.719
I want Mom one point whatever. One point Oh, you know,

938
00:43:58.760 --> 00:44:01.400
like it's very weird. She's different now. So I mean,

939
00:44:01.480 --> 00:44:03.320
you know, a little bout the story maybe, but just

940
00:44:03.320 --> 00:44:05.079
also just I want to get your thoughts on this

941
00:44:05.159 --> 00:44:08.400
idea of relationality as as one of these centerpieces of

942
00:44:08.400 --> 00:44:11.199
how we can talk about what the future could be

943
00:44:11.320 --> 00:44:13.119
or like how we think about I guess responsibility too.

944
00:44:13.119 --> 00:44:14.800
I think there's something else that came to mind there too.

945
00:44:15.480 --> 00:44:18.360
Well, we're never We're always going to be relating to

946
00:44:18.400 --> 00:44:22.800
each other, right, Like, no matter what our technology is doing, humans,

947
00:44:22.800 --> 00:44:26.079
we're not going to evolve that fast as the technology

948
00:44:26.159 --> 00:44:28.440
is moving. So we can't we can't. We have to

949
00:44:28.480 --> 00:44:30.280
keep trying on, Like what's it going to do with

950
00:44:30.320 --> 00:44:34.199
our relationships because that those are the wonky arguments that

951
00:44:34.239 --> 00:44:36.280
we're going to be having at home, is how the

952
00:44:36.320 --> 00:44:39.719
technology has affected us. And that's why that theme is

953
00:44:39.719 --> 00:44:43.320
pervasive across everything is because it affects not only us

954
00:44:43.360 --> 00:44:48.159
inner personally, but then also like how organizations work with us.

955
00:44:48.400 --> 00:44:51.840
As you were a friend to earlier, like minor data,

956
00:44:52.159 --> 00:44:57.960
When does that app that I presumably subscribed to use

957
00:44:58.280 --> 00:45:03.440
start using me in my life data in return? Like

958
00:45:03.480 --> 00:45:05.559
whether or not I can like sort of half consent

959
00:45:05.639 --> 00:45:08.440
it to it. So those relationships, whether it's between us

960
00:45:08.480 --> 00:45:12.559
in organizations or us interpersonally, like, that's it, Like that's

961
00:45:12.559 --> 00:45:14.679
what we're going to have to reckon with. You want

962
00:45:14.679 --> 00:45:17.079
to say more about about the stories.

963
00:45:17.079 --> 00:45:20.239
Yeah, I was going to say, Like the the question

964
00:45:20.320 --> 00:45:21.679
at the end of the story kind of is like

965
00:45:21.760 --> 00:45:24.079
have they solved the problem they were trying to solve

966
00:45:24.119 --> 00:45:27.480
with this resurrecting of the mom right, And it's clear

967
00:45:27.639 --> 00:45:30.639
probably they haven't. And so one of the questions is

968
00:45:30.679 --> 00:45:33.360
like is this technology going to fix the relational trouble

969
00:45:33.360 --> 00:45:35.079
that we have or is it deeper? You know? And

970
00:45:35.119 --> 00:45:38.679
also as we bring in technologies into our relationship, it's

971
00:45:38.719 --> 00:45:40.880
going to shift our culture and as that's something we want.

972
00:45:40.960 --> 00:45:44.719
Like I think if people who you know are very concerned,

973
00:45:44.760 --> 00:45:48.440
say about family values, I feel like the hardest thing

974
00:45:48.480 --> 00:45:52.679
on families has been increased speed of transportation, right, Like

975
00:45:53.039 --> 00:45:56.400
the fact that you can get further faster has you know,

976
00:45:56.679 --> 00:46:01.039
done more to kind of undermine family relationships than almost anything.

977
00:46:01.679 --> 00:46:04.880
And so the question is like, what what will these

978
00:46:04.880 --> 00:46:07.440
technologies do? What do we value? What do we want?

979
00:46:07.480 --> 00:46:10.320
You know, do they care about their relationship or do

980
00:46:10.360 --> 00:46:12.960
they care about having some sort of nostalgia for this

981
00:46:13.039 --> 00:46:15.159
mom that they had? You know, like what is the

982
00:46:15.199 --> 00:46:17.119
real problem that we're trying to solve with this stuff?

983
00:46:17.159 --> 00:46:20.079
Because I think oftentimes we're creating technologies that are looking

984
00:46:20.159 --> 00:46:23.239
for a problem. It's kind of a solution without a problem.

985
00:46:23.320 --> 00:46:25.119
And I think you can see that with AI for sure,

986
00:46:25.639 --> 00:46:27.280
with generative AI in particular.

987
00:46:28.159 --> 00:46:31.480
Yeah. Yeah, that's a great example and a great point.

988
00:46:31.519 --> 00:46:33.960
And I agree there too that it's like there's an

989
00:46:34.000 --> 00:46:36.599
excitement excitement in terms of making new technologies and having

990
00:46:36.599 --> 00:46:40.079
them come out. But something that I find tricky, I

991
00:46:40.119 --> 00:46:43.199
don't have an answer for it, and that's keep standing

992
00:46:43.199 --> 00:46:46.559
out is that we see a lot of especially technologists

993
00:46:46.639 --> 00:46:50.639
and surprisingly talk about technological development of especially on generative

994
00:46:50.679 --> 00:46:53.800
AI as inevitabilities, and it's it's an interesting idea of

995
00:46:53.800 --> 00:46:54.320
recognizing it.

996
00:46:54.320 --> 00:46:55.320
I come back to your point.

997
00:46:55.599 --> 00:46:58.039
You know that you say that all design begins as fiction, right,

998
00:46:58.119 --> 00:46:59.719
and then that make believe is a huge piece of

999
00:46:59.760 --> 00:47:01.679
all of this. And it's like this interesting idea of

1000
00:47:01.719 --> 00:47:03.639
like what stories that we choose to tell and then

1001
00:47:03.639 --> 00:47:04.480
who tells them?

1002
00:47:04.519 --> 00:47:07.480
Right? And it's not that say that they are it

1003
00:47:07.519 --> 00:47:09.639
is or is not inevitable. But it's an interesting question

1004
00:47:09.679 --> 00:47:11.800
that I've I've wrestled with that.

1005
00:47:11.880 --> 00:47:14.880
I hear it oftentimes, you know, talking with technologists and

1006
00:47:15.039 --> 00:47:17.159
and but I mean other folks as well, just as

1007
00:47:17.159 --> 00:47:18.679
we think about like oh yeah this is gonna happen, Well,

1008
00:47:18.679 --> 00:47:20.000
someone's going to make it, so I might as well

1009
00:47:20.039 --> 00:47:21.440
just make it. You know that that kind of idea,

1010
00:47:21.920 --> 00:47:24.840
and that's an interesting way to approach a problem. And

1011
00:47:25.000 --> 00:47:27.880
it's like, I wonder how much often is as you're saying, Scott,

1012
00:47:27.880 --> 00:47:30.800
that it's actually a you know, it's a solution in

1013
00:47:30.800 --> 00:47:33.199
search of a problem versus actually like we're solving a

1014
00:47:33.239 --> 00:47:35.679
need that we know needs to be solved, Especially because

1015
00:47:35.719 --> 00:47:40.840
like the idea of relationships and relationality as oftentimes unintended collateral. Right,

1016
00:47:40.840 --> 00:47:43.559
they're like either caused a different problem or it's like

1017
00:47:43.880 --> 00:47:46.960
the technology we thought we're solving a problem was actually

1018
00:47:47.000 --> 00:47:49.239
like not at all dressing the actual problem. It was

1019
00:47:49.280 --> 00:47:51.360
just it was doing something else, which was being shiny

1020
00:47:51.400 --> 00:47:53.800
and flashy and seeming cool, but then didn't actually improve

1021
00:47:53.840 --> 00:47:55.119
our relationship with my siblings.

1022
00:47:54.840 --> 00:47:57.239
You know, or or my mom for that matter, you know.

1023
00:47:57.679 --> 00:48:04.440
And that's an interesting conundrum because you know, outputs are

1024
00:48:04.480 --> 00:48:07.280
getting also flashier and better, Like that's a that was

1025
00:48:07.320 --> 00:48:09.880
a really flashy can that you also showed, Chris. It's

1026
00:48:09.880 --> 00:48:12.480
like even like that, like the design of like physical

1027
00:48:12.480 --> 00:48:15.760
simple things too is like getting really good that evoking

1028
00:48:16.159 --> 00:48:18.800
reactions from us, right, and like hopefully cans don't get

1029
00:48:18.800 --> 00:48:21.320
to outrage reaction level, but just like you know, there's

1030
00:48:21.320 --> 00:48:22.960
this idea that like we're getting pulled in a lot

1031
00:48:22.960 --> 00:48:25.280
of directions a lot of times, right, and how we

1032
00:48:25.320 --> 00:48:27.480
can think about that that way of like where do

1033
00:48:27.519 --> 00:48:29.800
we want to go versus just what's get thrown at

1034
00:48:29.880 --> 00:48:31.440
what's getting thrown at us? And like how can we

1035
00:48:31.440 --> 00:48:31.800
deal with that?

1036
00:48:31.840 --> 00:48:34.199
And there is an easy fix, though, which is that

1037
00:48:34.480 --> 00:48:36.519
our stories could represent more of us.

1038
00:48:37.119 --> 00:48:39.679
And you know, I mean you you said it, you

1039
00:48:39.760 --> 00:48:40.719
said it before.

1040
00:48:40.400 --> 00:48:44.519
At I'm like the pervasiveness and if you look at

1041
00:48:44.599 --> 00:48:46.880
the stories that are told, at least in the United States,

1042
00:48:46.880 --> 00:48:51.719
they're they're white male stories, both creator and who's starring

1043
00:48:51.800 --> 00:48:55.119
in them. And so like that that has limited what

1044
00:48:55.159 --> 00:48:59.880
we both imagine. But also like where scientific research has gone,

1045
00:49:00.159 --> 00:49:02.440
like we're funding for new ideas has gone, right, Like

1046
00:49:02.559 --> 00:49:05.960
that storytelling itself has had widespread consequences and now we

1047
00:49:06.039 --> 00:49:09.480
have at least an awareness of that, and it is

1048
00:49:09.519 --> 00:49:12.960
more talked about in society, but it was such.

1049
00:49:12.760 --> 00:49:14.280
As long a long distance to go.

1050
00:49:14.840 --> 00:49:19.440
So like any one of us can include more diverse stories,

1051
00:49:19.519 --> 00:49:21.719
more stories with people of a range of genders, and

1052
00:49:21.800 --> 00:49:25.239
in in what we're both in envisioning as well as

1053
00:49:25.280 --> 00:49:26.000
telling to others.

1054
00:49:26.480 --> 00:49:28.239
Beautiful point. I think it's exactly right.

1055
00:49:28.320 --> 00:49:31.000
And let's I mean, let's use that as a jumping

1056
00:49:31.000 --> 00:49:33.480
point to kind of think about. You know, the entire

1057
00:49:33.559 --> 00:49:35.159
second half we talked to some of these some of

1058
00:49:35.199 --> 00:49:37.079
these already, but the entire second half of your book

1059
00:49:37.119 --> 00:49:39.280
is dedicated to helping us think about these kind of

1060
00:49:39.320 --> 00:49:41.440
actionable things. We have a lot of intangibles of kind

1061
00:49:41.440 --> 00:49:43.679
of defining these problems spaces. But then I think that's

1062
00:49:43.679 --> 00:49:45.199
a great example there too in terms of like who's

1063
00:49:45.199 --> 00:49:48.039
at your storytelling table and also what narratives are you

1064
00:49:48.079 --> 00:49:51.840
consuming or participating in, you know, and recognizing the storyteller

1065
00:49:51.880 --> 00:49:53.880
as much as the story being told, right and to

1066
00:49:53.920 --> 00:49:56.880
your point there is hugely important, you know. And so

1067
00:49:58.199 --> 00:50:00.719
I love the idea of like being awkward as.

1068
00:50:00.880 --> 00:50:01.519
A solution space.

1069
00:50:01.519 --> 00:50:04.079
It's actionable that we can kind of learn to sit

1070
00:50:04.119 --> 00:50:06.039
with the kind of the discomfort of the one of

1071
00:50:06.039 --> 00:50:08.159
the cognitive distance of like, oh, actually I've only been

1072
00:50:08.199 --> 00:50:10.679
consuming one kind of story that's kind of embarrassing, right, uh,

1073
00:50:10.880 --> 00:50:13.599
and and or like recognizing that. Yeah, but I also

1074
00:50:13.679 --> 00:50:15.599
kind of love that that, you know, hot dogs, I

1075
00:50:15.599 --> 00:50:17.840
don't really want to not eat them, you know, and

1076
00:50:17.920 --> 00:50:19.199
like how do I how do I kind of think

1077
00:50:19.199 --> 00:50:20.079
about that process?

1078
00:50:20.119 --> 00:50:23.000
So yeah, kind of walk walk me through a couple.

1079
00:50:22.800 --> 00:50:25.440
Of these ideas like that that maybe maybe some of

1080
00:50:25.440 --> 00:50:27.119
your favorites what that stood out, like, so we can

1081
00:50:27.159 --> 00:50:28.719
talk about the awkward if you want to go more

1082
00:50:28.719 --> 00:50:30.599
into that. I love that idea, But just like, how

1083
00:50:30.599 --> 00:50:33.480
do we get some of these ideas like what can

1084
00:50:33.519 --> 00:50:35.679
we do, how do we find our kind of pathway forward?

1085
00:50:36.440 --> 00:50:38.239
And so beginning with the idea of stories, I think

1086
00:50:38.280 --> 00:50:40.599
is a really wonderful thing. I'm always a fan of

1087
00:50:40.599 --> 00:50:42.440
being awkward. So what else stands out is as ways

1088
00:50:42.440 --> 00:50:45.360
that we can kind of find pathways forward to kind

1089
00:50:45.360 --> 00:50:47.199
of plug ourselves into the future that we would like

1090
00:50:47.400 --> 00:50:47.840
to see.

1091
00:50:47.960 --> 00:50:49.679
Well, I love awkwardness too.

1092
00:50:49.760 --> 00:50:53.639
I feel like for maybe ten years in my Twitter

1093
00:50:53.679 --> 00:50:58.920
handle I had something like awkwardness enthusiastic that that's my

1094
00:50:59.480 --> 00:51:03.199
That's like the main descriptor of who I am, right,

1095
00:51:03.719 --> 00:51:06.480
and like I think, I think I love it and

1096
00:51:07.000 --> 00:51:11.639
because that it hits you in the gut when you

1097
00:51:11.920 --> 00:51:14.679
are out of place such that you feel awkward or

1098
00:51:14.719 --> 00:51:17.280
you would see it in somebody else sometimes too right,

1099
00:51:17.639 --> 00:51:20.199
And it's really clear often if you're traveling right and

1100
00:51:20.239 --> 00:51:22.280
you're in a different culture, or you see a tourist

1101
00:51:22.360 --> 00:51:24.679
something clearly a tourist is if you know, if you

1102
00:51:24.719 --> 00:51:27.800
show up at San Francisco in the summertime and like

1103
00:51:27.920 --> 00:51:32.119
shorts and a T shirt, you're gonna freeze right because

1104
00:51:32.119 --> 00:51:34.360
there's so much fog, and you wouldn't think that, and

1105
00:51:34.440 --> 00:51:37.199
so like right away, you just like if you're a local,

1106
00:51:37.280 --> 00:51:39.679
you kind of chuckle at that, like the tourists that

1107
00:51:39.760 --> 00:51:42.119
all have to go by the big San Francisco hoodies

1108
00:51:42.199 --> 00:51:44.760
because they did show up with the right outfits, right,

1109
00:51:45.000 --> 00:51:48.519
So it's it's it's little moments like that though, that

1110
00:51:48.559 --> 00:51:52.280
like you notice when you're out of place that we

1111
00:51:53.039 --> 00:51:55.280
try to often get rid of them right away, right,

1112
00:51:55.320 --> 00:51:58.639
We try to blend in, We try to mitigate that

1113
00:51:58.679 --> 00:52:02.280
feeling that you're out of place. But like what we

1114
00:52:02.360 --> 00:52:04.119
like to talk about in this book is like what

1115
00:52:04.199 --> 00:52:06.480
if if you just sit with it for a second

1116
00:52:06.639 --> 00:52:11.880
and that awkwardness becomes the highlight. Scott and I were

1117
00:52:12.000 --> 00:52:15.480
just in New York talking about the book in a

1118
00:52:15.480 --> 00:52:18.800
few different ways, and we went up to the high

1119
00:52:18.840 --> 00:52:21.880
Line and I'd never been up there before and Scott

1120
00:52:21.920 --> 00:52:24.559
has been has been there and used to live in

1121
00:52:24.559 --> 00:52:26.480
New York, and he's like, oh, you got to see

1122
00:52:26.519 --> 00:52:29.719
these areas of the Highline where they have built in

1123
00:52:30.079 --> 00:52:36.000
these windows that are just like overlooking traffic, right, And

1124
00:52:36.239 --> 00:52:39.519
it's like it's one of those things where we were

1125
00:52:39.679 --> 00:52:44.360
sitting there where watching like traffic out a window. So

1126
00:52:44.400 --> 00:52:49.239
there's like literally nothing that should be engaging, but it's

1127
00:52:49.280 --> 00:52:53.800
just like a fascinating that that was the thing, right,

1128
00:52:54.199 --> 00:52:57.599
and it just like throws it's like at this other

1129
00:52:57.719 --> 00:53:02.599
way of viewing viewing like you know, if we were

1130
00:53:02.639 --> 00:53:05.159
just down on street level, like amongst the traffic are

1131
00:53:05.199 --> 00:53:07.320
in it, you might be annoyed. But like put you

1132
00:53:07.400 --> 00:53:09.239
in this position that's like a little bit like an

1133
00:53:09.280 --> 00:53:12.079
awkward angle to view traffic and like an awkward thing

1134
00:53:12.119 --> 00:53:15.159
to do, and like then it becomes fascinating. Then you

1135
00:53:15.199 --> 00:53:18.239
see the dynamics of like where do the cars go,

1136
00:53:18.320 --> 00:53:21.199
do they come in ways? How people interacting and you're

1137
00:53:21.360 --> 00:53:23.599
you're you start to be clued in, like so that

1138
00:53:23.719 --> 00:53:27.760
like paying attention to that, those moments where you're viewing

1139
00:53:27.760 --> 00:53:30.280
something from a different angle like start to heighten all

1140
00:53:30.320 --> 00:53:31.119
of your senses.

1141
00:53:31.559 --> 00:53:32.760
Yeah, that's a great example to it.

1142
00:53:32.800 --> 00:53:34.840
And it's funny because it's something that yeah, you'd be like, oh, yeah,

1143
00:53:34.920 --> 00:53:36.079
we went to New York and watch traffic.

1144
00:53:36.079 --> 00:53:40.360
You're like cool. But you know what you like when

1145
00:53:40.400 --> 00:53:40.840
you when.

1146
00:53:40.719 --> 00:53:42.559
You change the you change the framework, and it's like

1147
00:53:42.840 --> 00:53:46.280
actually really interesting and fascinating process to realize why does

1148
00:53:46.280 --> 00:53:48.360
traffic flow that way? You know, and why are we

1149
00:53:48.360 --> 00:53:50.920
seeing like the cars you know, move in this way?

1150
00:53:50.960 --> 00:53:52.760
And then It makes you think, wait, how does traffic

1151
00:53:52.760 --> 00:53:54.280
work and my home and how does it work in

1152
00:53:54.280 --> 00:53:55.920
this country over here? And like it kind of you

1153
00:53:55.920 --> 00:53:58.559
can cascade into these whole different ways of realizing that

1154
00:53:58.559 --> 00:54:02.159
traffic is actually a super fascinating and weird super organism

1155
00:54:02.159 --> 00:54:06.360
almost you know, of beings moving back and forth.

1156
00:54:06.400 --> 00:54:08.440
You know, Yeah, there's so much about that back section

1157
00:54:08.599 --> 00:54:11.639
that actionable as we call them, is just about looking

1158
00:54:11.639 --> 00:54:13.840
at the world differently so you can expose the things

1159
00:54:13.880 --> 00:54:16.760
that you're missing. We found this great James Baldwin quote

1160
00:54:17.599 --> 00:54:20.159
as we were researching the book, which is the purpose

1161
00:54:20.199 --> 00:54:23.360
of art is to lay bare the questions hidden by

1162
00:54:23.360 --> 00:54:27.440
the answers. And I think you could say that about anthropology,

1163
00:54:27.440 --> 00:54:29.159
you could say that about design, you can say that

1164
00:54:29.199 --> 00:54:32.159
about science, right, And it's looking at things as they

1165
00:54:32.199 --> 00:54:35.159
are to try and figure out, like, well, what are

1166
00:54:35.159 --> 00:54:37.519
we missing? What other things could be here?

1167
00:54:37.840 --> 00:54:38.039
Right?

1168
00:54:38.159 --> 00:54:40.559
And I think that example Chris talked about where you're

1169
00:54:40.559 --> 00:54:44.079
watching the traffic, it's sort of like put you in

1170
00:54:44.119 --> 00:54:47.239
this fascination with the way things are, and you start

1171
00:54:47.239 --> 00:54:49.719
to think about, like why is that this way? You know,

1172
00:54:49.719 --> 00:54:52.079
why are we all driving cars through this city? In fact,

1173
00:54:52.239 --> 00:54:53.880
I would say the last time. I hadn't been to

1174
00:54:53.960 --> 00:54:56.719
New York since before the pandemic, and it was noticeably

1175
00:54:56.800 --> 00:55:01.360
quieter because the number of electric cars and taxis, and

1176
00:55:01.920 --> 00:55:05.280
it just had a totally different feel. And also Broadway,

1177
00:55:05.280 --> 00:55:07.159
where you were staying on Broadway and it had been

1178
00:55:07.320 --> 00:55:09.239
blocked off, and there's you know, there are all these

1179
00:55:09.360 --> 00:55:12.079
areas where you can walk now down Broadway and it's

1180
00:55:12.159 --> 00:55:14.960
just a different thing. And you know, twenty years ago,

1181
00:55:14.960 --> 00:55:17.679
I would never have thought they would block off Broadway.

1182
00:55:18.800 --> 00:55:22.199
It just seems like a ridiculous idea. But it totally

1183
00:55:22.239 --> 00:55:24.199
works and it hasn't affected the traffic very much, and

1184
00:55:24.239 --> 00:55:26.840
it feels great. And so like your ability to see

1185
00:55:26.840 --> 00:55:30.400
things differently than leads to an ability to do things differently,

1186
00:55:30.480 --> 00:55:32.280
and so a lot of the back half is just

1187
00:55:32.320 --> 00:55:34.400
like how do we look at what is and see

1188
00:55:34.400 --> 00:55:36.599
it as what could be or what might be or

1189
00:55:36.639 --> 00:55:38.599
why is it this way? And then that opens up

1190
00:55:38.599 --> 00:55:40.639
that make believe space for a possibility and you can

1191
00:55:40.679 --> 00:55:41.199
move from there.

1192
00:55:41.760 --> 00:55:43.920
I love it super well said, and I think that,

1193
00:55:43.960 --> 00:55:46.039
you know, I definitely came away from you know, I've

1194
00:55:46.039 --> 00:55:47.960
been telling people about this book for a month now

1195
00:55:48.000 --> 00:55:50.760
because it's like it's such an interesting way, and I

1196
00:55:50.760 --> 00:55:53.679
think it's nice to have, I guess, an optimistic approach

1197
00:55:53.679 --> 00:55:55.079
to like how we can actually design the future that

1198
00:55:55.360 --> 00:55:57.960
we want, you know, and as we think about that,

1199
00:55:58.000 --> 00:56:00.559
you know, it's something you said A top two that

1200
00:56:00.800 --> 00:56:02.800
I'm still thinking about here rallying around in the cage

1201
00:56:02.880 --> 00:56:04.320
is that, like there was the we don't want to

1202
00:56:04.360 --> 00:56:06.840
kind of go the dystopic or necessarily utopic pathway, but

1203
00:56:06.840 --> 00:56:09.519
there's like this interesting third space that I recently more

1204
00:56:09.519 --> 00:56:11.679
came across school, like the protopia, right, this idea of

1205
00:56:11.719 --> 00:56:15.000
like how do we move towards a more positive future space?

1206
00:56:15.079 --> 00:56:17.320
And that's kind of one of the things that I've

1207
00:56:17.519 --> 00:56:19.960
I've come away from this from reading and we're talking

1208
00:56:20.000 --> 00:56:22.119
with y'all, and so I'm kind of curious, like how

1209
00:56:22.119 --> 00:56:24.960
do you I guess this one like distillation right in

1210
00:56:24.960 --> 00:56:26.639
this idea of like what what can folks kind of

1211
00:56:26.639 --> 00:56:28.480
walk away from this saying Okay, I now either know

1212
00:56:28.519 --> 00:56:31.039
what to do and or I feel really good about

1213
00:56:31.159 --> 00:56:33.079
understanding what problem spaces are, you know, like what do

1214
00:56:33.079 --> 00:56:34.679
you want folks to kind of come away from this

1215
00:56:35.400 --> 00:56:37.440
and be able to do with the with the book

1216
00:56:37.480 --> 00:56:38.280
and the ideas.

1217
00:56:38.079 --> 00:56:41.880
I would love for everybody both to feel agency to

1218
00:56:43.239 --> 00:56:47.800
notice and name what feels totally bizarre. So like this

1219
00:56:47.960 --> 00:56:51.119
idea of naming your monsters is something else that we

1220
00:56:51.159 --> 00:56:53.719
have in the back half, which is the idea of

1221
00:56:53.760 --> 00:56:57.760
like I see this real phenomenon happening in the world,

1222
00:56:57.840 --> 00:57:00.280
and it makes me feel uneasy because so much of it,

1223
00:57:00.840 --> 00:57:03.360
much of it is unknown, right, Like that's a monster.

1224
00:57:03.440 --> 00:57:05.639
We got to get better at talking about that type

1225
00:57:05.679 --> 00:57:08.760
of thing because it exists in all of us, and

1226
00:57:08.840 --> 00:57:13.280
it helps keep the issues that are happening with our

1227
00:57:13.639 --> 00:57:15.960
technology and our climate, like it.

1228
00:57:15.920 --> 00:57:17.400
Keeps them in the public psyche.

1229
00:57:17.920 --> 00:57:19.880
So I want I would love for people to get

1230
00:57:19.920 --> 00:57:23.920
better at that that type of notice and name, as

1231
00:57:23.960 --> 00:57:26.760
well as just being aware that like everything we build

1232
00:57:26.800 --> 00:57:30.440
will affect everything else and how can we do that

1233
00:57:30.920 --> 00:57:31.400
with that?

1234
00:57:31.800 --> 00:57:33.760
With that humility, Yeah.

1235
00:57:33.519 --> 00:57:36.119
That's that humility I think, like I want people to

1236
00:57:36.119 --> 00:57:40.280
have excitement for their own ignorance. For ignorance is like

1237
00:57:40.320 --> 00:57:43.760
a willful ignorance, but it's like there's something special about

1238
00:57:43.760 --> 00:57:46.480
what you don't know, and I think it makes us

1239
00:57:46.760 --> 00:57:49.199
uncomfortable to admit that we don't know things, or you know,

1240
00:57:49.280 --> 00:57:51.079
it feels like that's going to mean that we're not

1241
00:57:51.119 --> 00:57:53.280
going to be able to navigate the things we need

1242
00:57:53.320 --> 00:57:55.719
to do. But like, I feel like if you can

1243
00:57:55.760 --> 00:57:59.079
have excitement to discover what you don't know, I think

1244
00:57:59.079 --> 00:58:02.920
you could shift how we work together, what we discover,

1245
00:58:03.840 --> 00:58:06.320
how we make our way through this sort of really

1246
00:58:06.360 --> 00:58:09.199
difficult time. And it's kind of an absurd idea that

1247
00:58:09.280 --> 00:58:11.920
we would know everything, and yet we kind of want to,

1248
00:58:11.960 --> 00:58:14.039
you know, we kind of click to that a little bit.

1249
00:58:14.199 --> 00:58:16.079
I do it all the time totally.

1250
00:58:16.119 --> 00:58:18.920
No, I think both I think really great positions and

1251
00:58:19.159 --> 00:58:22.159
important pieces for us to digest and then think thing

1252
00:58:22.199 --> 00:58:25.639
through where it's it's like we can both celebrate what

1253
00:58:25.679 --> 00:58:27.440
we don't know, which is I think a good idea, right,

1254
00:58:27.480 --> 00:58:29.320
but then also the idea of like our crassy to

1255
00:58:29.400 --> 00:58:33.280
learn and understand things together right and to be able

1256
00:58:33.320 --> 00:58:36.400
to recognize how we can work together in these in

1257
00:58:36.440 --> 00:58:39.239
these bigger ways. I think that has been great. So

1258
00:58:39.440 --> 00:58:41.239
I just want to say huge thank you too both

1259
00:58:41.239 --> 00:58:42.440
for joining me on the POTEA. That has been a

1260
00:58:42.440 --> 00:58:45.239
super fun conversation. I get really enthus and excited about

1261
00:58:45.239 --> 00:58:46.480
the books, so thank you for putting out in the world.

1262
00:58:46.519 --> 00:58:50.119
I'm excited for folks to check it out. And yeah,

1263
00:58:50.159 --> 00:58:51.960
is there anything else that's on your mind that we

1264
00:58:51.960 --> 00:58:53.320
haven't talked about that you want to say, Oh, actually,

1265
00:58:53.320 --> 00:58:56.559
we should definitely hit this point, leave that space just

1266
00:58:56.599 --> 00:58:57.960
in case that's that's something on.

1267
00:58:57.880 --> 00:58:59.360
Your mind, and we can we can go from there.

1268
00:59:00.159 --> 00:59:00.559
It's okay.

1269
00:59:00.559 --> 00:59:04.280
If not, no, I mean, I want to say thank

1270
00:59:04.320 --> 00:59:05.039
you to you, Adam.

1271
00:59:05.079 --> 00:59:07.559
I feel like we did hit a lot of territory

1272
00:59:07.840 --> 00:59:10.440
and that was really cool. And I have one more

1273
00:59:10.480 --> 00:59:12.920
thing to share when we're done that. I don't have

1274
00:59:13.000 --> 00:59:14.480
enough research on to say for real, but I think

1275
00:59:14.519 --> 00:59:15.000
you'll find it.

1276
00:59:17.079 --> 00:59:17.800
I'm atrigued.

1277
00:59:18.559 --> 00:59:21.960
Yeah, I thought it was a great combo. Thanks Adam, awesome.

1278
00:59:21.960 --> 00:59:23.280
Thank you so much. It's been a lot of fun

1279
00:59:23.320 --> 00:59:25.559
and hopefully more in the future.