The Truth About AI & The Future of Humanity

0:00 The role of humility in design, I think is way underestimated. Like if you're a practicing designer, I think the idea is that, like you know, these sort of rock star designers designs like a bit of an egotistical art. It is totally humbling, Like you make something and it does not work the first time, and then you create something else and it's like it works for thirty percent, but not the other seventy, and then you get up to the seventy and then the thirty percent is really not it's not working at all, Like it's you're just constantly confronted with what you don't know, and so you start to develop tactics to like figure out what you don't know. You know, if you're going to be a good designer, you have to be able to like recognize that you're ignorant frankly and find ways to you know, bring people in who understand what you don't.

0:59 But so really excited to welcome you both to this anthro life podcast. You know. One of the things I love of anthropology in my own bias right is the kind of the holistic perspective that it brings to thinking about the human pathways in human stories, and I think I really love in the work that both of you do, especially in the new book that you put together on Assembling Tomorrow, has really opened up this question of thinking more holistically in terms of our design processes, right, and what that could be in terms of layers of how we think about design and experiences, you know, systems, products themselves and things like that. So really excited to dive into all of that. But to kick us off, I'm excited to have Chris A. Carter on the podcast with me. Is a geoscientist turn a design educator which is really cool, and Scott Doorley a filmmaker turn at design educator. So both really cool, interesting backgrounds that you know, I want to dive into.

1:47 It kind of makes sense about the work that you're doing now and that you're both working as in educational aspects creative direction, putting together the department the administration side of it too at the Stanford School. So really excited to have you on the podcast. So thank you both for joining me on the pot today. Thanks for having us, Adam. We're's oat to be here. Thanks Adam. Awesome. Let's let's kind of set the stage a little bit, you know, here in getting this this idea of one of the things that really stood out to me as we think about what does it mean to assemble tomorrow and think of this broader approach around design is the way that you kind of open these these histories of the future, you know, this kind of I think, this really interesting pathway of this blend. And so I want to kind of start with that idea of like what does it mean to kind of tell stories about about the future writing kind of histories of them. And so one that really stood out to me and I think is a good like centerpiece of the book itself, is the idea of on mammoth step around the mammoth step, thinking about bio biodesign. So maybe you could walk us through a little bit of this idea, you know, for folks that are coming into your work, and tell us a bit about what's happening in the story and like why why this story seem to make sense as a way to kind of center your argument in your story.

2:52 Yeah, I mean, so the histories of the future are these twenty speculative stories that span the course of our nonfiction. So there's these moments of imagination that we tried to paint across the book as a way to envision possibilities as to like what the future might like look like, so that we could decide, like, hey, we like, do we like how it feels to be in this future? Can we try it on before it happens? And On the Mammoth Step, the story you're referring to, occurs right in the middle of the book, in between parts one and two, and it does that because it spans the themes of the entire book. What's happening in this story is we're transported into a world that's not too far in the future and you know, only within fifty ish years from now, where the very like in today twenty twenty four age the science of mammoth the extinction, which is actively being worked on today. In the On the Mammoth Step story, it has worked and we have we have mammoths and they are existing up in the place to see in the park area in what's currently Russia.

4:10 And what's happening in that story is like we're looking at all of the roles and responsibilities that new people have in there. So you mentioned the biomic designer, who's really the one of the heroines of the story whose job is to program the biome around the mammoths, And you know, like envisioning like that is a job is interesting, right because when you bring if you we're going to de extinct the huge mammal, we have to think about how it's going to affect the other elements in the ecosystem, the smaller animals, the flora, the fauna, Like who are what are entities governmental environmental that may have interest in how that de extinction effort plays out. So that story really delves into the drama over a week's worth of time in this era of mammoth de extinction.

5:07 I love I love that story for the for these reasons. And it's something else that you know stands out to your point is that both the power of speculative fiction of how's we think about what does it mean to talk about what the future can be? But then to your two as you noted there too that you know the Church Lab at Harvard is is literally working on this exact problem. So it's like this funny point of like both talking about future stories, but there's there's nuggets of it today also, right, And a lot of the stories that you share too, and that's a really interesting piece to to think about as we're contemplating what does it mean to use speculative future as a way of kind of walking walking forward and what could be? And then also I think as an important metaphor and tool for making sense of how do we think more holistically about the reverberations of designs and the processes themselves. Like I'm curious to you as you thought about this, like why what are you to mammoths as the symbol to kind of show the halfway point between these these like intangibles and the actionables, like what we can do and what's kind of shaping the forces of our lives.

6:04 I mean, the extinction is wild, right, Like the fact that we could bring back a species that used to be on this planet, you know, even with humans here, right Like so mammoths, mammoths were here when humans were on the planet. The fact that we could bring them back, it really plays with our psyches in an interesting way. It's a they are great combination of these really tricky technologies Scott and I call them mischievous materials in the book that can morph and change themselves after humans have launched them into the world, and really you know, affect the rest of the natural world in affect us in ways that we may not you know, be able to control or even recognize. So you know, working on DNA is one of these mischievous materials. And it felt like again like as you said, the Church Lab is working on this, right, It's like it's not that far fetched, and so it feels it felt like both like just enough fascinating to hold your attention, but also like really important because if we're going to have like a huge new animal like the mammoth walking around, like that's gonna have like serious ecological implications if not economic, if not you know, social, if not you know like add on whatever whatever other system you want to that we will

7:36 feel those reverberations. And so it felt quite emblematic of both what's possible, but also feels fantastical a little bit too. That's that's a great answer, and it's it's such a a pointent I agree to it because it's like a charismatic megafauna, right, is like one of the emblems of also this question of like what came before and what could be next. I'm curious, you know, Scott, if you if you're that kind of making or thinking through a narrative to like, was was Jurassic Park a huge influence back in the day, And then it was like this is a great way to try to talk about what could be, But today it's somehow last like Flicys seen Park as a real place also, which is kind of funny to have to recognize that it's a Jassic Park is not actually not there, it's it's it's over in North Russia.

8:18 Yeah, that's so funny that you bring up Jurassic Park because when I saw that movie, I was so fascinated by the animations that I came out of the theater kind of walking like a Veloco raptor, you know, like this. I was like, Wow, how. Did they get that? You know? And I think that's part of why storytelling is so effective, is it it takes a very abstract idea and it makes it really concrete in a way where you have to get into the details, not just speculation about what if this, No, it's going to be so nuts out are we gonna imagine what's going to happen? But you get into what's the day to day life. I Mean, one of my favorite things in the Man Step story is that it's a lot about the interpersonal relationships that are going on, and they're trying to it's not just about these big decisions that we're making about mammas. It's about the inner personal relationships that are guiding those decisions.

9:09 And to you know, the idea of making it a history of the future was to sort of do that thing that you as an anthropologists do, which is to look at what is in a way that looks at it as if it's a little bit you know, not quite normal, right, You don't look at it, you know, like all the assumptions in living in it that make it kind of fall into the background. We wanted to highlight, you know, like what would the world really be like, what would relationships be like when this technology is now in the middle of them, because that's where we're going to be living. It's not it's unlikely that it'll be in these huge utopia dystopia situations that we all have in our head. It's going to be day to day life's going to feel normal in this weird new environment, and what's normal going to feel like?

9:55 Yeah, and why is that exactly? Why is that the normal? You know? When it changes, it's funny too, because obviously the other the I appreciate that, like the the you know, utopia dystopia kind of tag of like, let's not we're not trying to necessarily go to either of those, of course, but that's like where we always jump when you think about these things, right, Obviously, with the rise of generative AI, you know, there's there's always often two major camps that it's like we're going to see the either destruction of everything human and terminator or the matrix is going to happen, and or it's like they're actually just really kind of you know six grader writers that you know, it's the hours of the Internet. Like that's not a great like aspiration. It just brings it down to size, right you know, well, I mean that's that's thing. I'm kind of curious to think about that too, to that point of like how do we can we think about the idea of size in that regard in terms of like, obviously there is already huge reverberations taking place around AI, and I think you all, I think engage some really interesting and important conversations. And fiction is too around me, like data privacy, surveillance and pieces like that that we're both experiencing now, but then also what.

10:54 What those those pieces might take us into. But part of it is that we I don't is it like in terms of both inspiration for for the book is help, But ask you how you explore the like themes like surveillance or data in privacy? Is it because we tend to get the size wrong in terms of when we're thinking about what we're making. You know, I love the idea that you talk about reverberations and that's that there's there's a time element there, you know, But do we miss something about size too? I'm kind of curious in your perspective. Yeah, that's a calling out size is really really you know on point I think it's with these emerging technologies. One is their invisibility. So the fact that most of them, like you can't see an algorithm. You see the effects of the algorithm, but you don't see the thing itself, not in the same way that we see wood or plastic or other types of building materials, which is partly what makes them that that mischievous.

11:48 And their speed at which. They can be launched, the ease with which they can be launched, and the speed at which they can be launched and then and then change and scale quickly. So I think like that is the size element that you're calling out, Like you you can launch something from your home computer that could be scale to the planet instantly. I mean we just saw it with the with the with the CrowdStrike. Oh yeah, you know attack, right, like an update that was pushed to hopefully keep things secure, like all of a sudden takes down systems across the planet, like in an instant. How many people were crippled because of that, right, Like we're we're that size as fast as happening, And again like we didn't That's a great example of one where it's like we didn't know until we saw the effects of it taking everything down, how widespread it was.

12:47 Yeah, that's a good example to it. And I I. Didn't realize that. I mean at the time we're recorded too, you know, it's just you know, looking today that they're like thousands of flights right just in the US alone, right have been grounded, And like that's a crazy thing to think about, right to your point, it's that then what does that mean then all the people that didn't get where they're going, right, and like these these kind of reverberations that can come from it from a data push, you know, and we don't recognize oftentimes that that idea of that that that kind of connectivity or interconnectivity there with how things happen. And something that that I'm kind of curious think about in that respect with you, Chris, is that you know, since you've got a background of geoscience too, I think is very cool, Like how did that kind of focus or background kind of shape the approach that y'all took in terms of like you brought in like ecological system, which I think is a very important part obviously we're talking about, you know, biomic design also is part of the mammoth story, So like, how did that shape the thinking in terms of what are the right layers we have to talk about when we're thinking about reverberations and at what point does Earth show up right these geology show.

13:51 Yeah, I think like Scott and I both believe like where we are all many things, you know, like none no one of us is just one thing, and one of the ways you can define us is by the careers that we've explored in our interest areas. But then like like or also parents, we're also like citizens of different areas, we've like lived in different places, and that overlap of possibility and our lenses in the world, Like, that's the that's the that's the hook we wanted to capitalize on in like like fleshing out the book overall, and then for me personally, you know, my background geosciences has it people often think it's very drastic to go from geology to design.

14:33 It's like, how about those are so different? Like in reality it it felt very very fluid to me, Like in the geosciences, it's a very interdisciplinary, like you have to do a lot of exploration of how you know, the different processes that currently shape the planet are, like how do they relate to the ones that have in the past? What might that mean for climate in the future? So what like the thing keen patterns are quite similar, and you know, and like the care for the planet that you see in the book isn't just mine, it's both of ours, right, I think like that was something that Scott and. I both worked hard towards. Is so it's to sound like one voice because we really we really do feel one voicy about about everything that we have in there.

15:24 I will say, I appreciated the point that you did say, like you can try to guess who's writing who, but like, really it's true a lot of the stories are Chrissa, you know, it's a lot of the nature's me. But yeah, yep, well we'll never tell now, but I think I appreciate that. I think that's a great point too, and kind of recognizing also how these different pieces both from the background, but then also recognizing that how we ask questions, what we're looking for when we're thinking about uh, change over time, when we're thinking about scale, you know, like those are not discipline specific of anything, right, and that like I'm telling how to kind of build across those is I think an important point as we begin to also contemplate I imagine I actually i'murious.

16:05 I'll say, if you see this at the d scal itself. Too, that like the rise of interdisciplinarity, interdisciplinary thinking right and approaches, and that even that's changing how some degrees work too, right as people. Are kind of educating for the future. So yeah, tell me a little bit about that, and like what you're seeing in that space, like building connections seems more important than ever. I guess, like as we educate our our future. I was gonna say youth, but it could be old people too, So anybody like educating our future, you know, how do we approach that? And as we're seeing boundaries become more porous in terms of like disciplines, content and ideas. I think there are a couple of things going on there. One is in the fact that everything's becoming so interconnected. The opportunities are in the overlaps, you know, So it's when two disciplines come together, it brings up a whole new thing, and there's a lot of a lot of new opportunity there. To the problems are so interconnected that there's just no way for one person or even someone from a specific discipline to take care of everything, right, Like we can only create by collaborating now and then last actually, then to add on one thing is the tools are getting so much easier to use, so, like, you know, my background's a filmmaking when I when I learned filmmaking, I learned on film where you literally have to imagine what you're doing is going to turn out a certain way because you'll never see it until the film is developed. And then when the film is developed, you have to literally edit it by taping strips together.

17:30 Then I went and taught at BU and I taught on video, and not because I'm a great teacher, but because video is so quick to be able to see what you've done. I was able to teach my students in a week what it took me a year to learn, you know, I mean, And I just had this moment where it's like, Wow, everyone's going to be using this stuff. It's like, there's no way this isn't going to open up more people being able to use this stuff. And now we have phones in the pocket. But you know, you go down the line and tools and other disciplines are getting easier to use. All the design tools are getting easier to use, so that gives access to people who may not have, you know, studied that as their profession or prepared in that way. So you've got this access of tools, the opportunities and the overlap, and then the fact that there's no all the problems are so intertwined and big that there's no real way to have one one person or one discipline do it. It just kind of you have to work that way. I think, whether or not you're in a purely interdisciplinary program where you're just working with another department or another type of thinker, Like it's just really where things are at now.

18:31 Yeah, I agree on hundred percent. And it's it's interesting too because you know, I'm trained as anthropologist, but I found my way into design anthropology both through the research and then and I taught in a design program for a number of years in Boston also, and I always love I love the combination. And but but to that point too, it seems like design was just one of the fastest and first areas to say, actually, we have to all talk together if I mean, if we're gonna make things that are both useful and helpful and not harmful. I think that's especially the latter part is the important theme that your book is also helping us address too. But did I guess have you all noticed that as well? In terms of that, there was a I know, there's a quickness to like the collaborative aspect of design, both for education and for kind of output. I mean, you know, I mean part of it, I guess is the you know, Silicon Valley push and like the excitement entrepreneurship and design that it's exciting we can make stuff, and that has to be intradisciplinary by by nature businesses making things.

19:21 I think, but I don't know. Curious your perspective on. This too, and that if you if you saw is designed first out of the gate or is it just it did it well. It's also good at branding right. Design thinking has been a great way for people to both love and hate that idea and then try to kind of push through how we can you can you know, codify the making making of things? So, I don't know, I'm curious about this, this perspective that you'll have seen in terms of where design kind of came from and how it's it's like, I don't know if it's right in the wave or making the wave in terms of being a very collaborative discipline. It's interesting even thinking of design at Stanford. Stanford's got one of the older design and from an engineering landscape focus programs in the US, you know, not I'm not like putting this up against like a RISDI where they have like a long history of really being able to hone in the details of art and design work.

20:14 But from an engineering. Perspective, you know, design at Stanford used to mean mechanical design and design of mechanisms, right, and then it was then like the business lens was added into it, and then the psychology lens was added into it. And there's something about like the I think maybe you're onto something, but like maybe there's a willingness amongst designers because it's really a field of noticing opportunities, noticing gaps but also patterns, right, and like you have to take in a lot of ways of looking and a lot of information to notice those patterns and gaps and then say like, oh, here's an opportunity. So I think maybe that there's something about designers that are that are predisposed to that type of thinking.

21:01 Also, it's. For better or for worse in comparison to other disciplines, like not a field where that like deep, deep scholarship of the pursuit of truth has been the way that the field has grown up. Like, for instance, like if you're gonna be a physicist, right, you're likely like pursuing that like tiny slips of physics that is your specialty in building, you know, historically like. On the works of what has come before, et cetera. And like a designers are drawing from all over it, right, it doesn't fit as neatly into one bucket. So I think like there's something about the discipline itself that has made it feel this way, And I'd agree that I think you're seeing that acceptance of interdisciplinarity and like what you get from all these different fields, Like I think like that is spreading.

21:54 I think the role of humility in design, I think is way underestimated. Like if you're a practicing designer, I think the idea is that, like you know, these sort of rock star designers designs like a bit of an egotistical art. It is totally humbling, Like you make something and it does not work the first time, and then you create something else and it's like it works for thirty percent but not the other seventy, and then you get up to the seventy and then the thirty percent is really not it's not working at all, Like it's you're just constantly confronted with what you don't know, and so you start to develop tactics to like figure out what you don't know. You know, if you're going to be a good designer, you have to be able to like recognize that you're ignorant frankly and find ways to you know, bring people in who understand what you don't, otherwise it won't work. So like, if you're a practicing designer, I think you get how humbling it is. And I think that that humility then forces almost you to collaborate, right, Like it's just there's no other choice. And so I think there's like that role of humility. I think it's like way, way, way underestimated. I don't think it shows up for some reason, maybe because you're getting humbled so much you want to pretend like you know what you're doing something you know, but it's real. And I think it's an advantage actually because you just you know, you have to figure it out with other people and try things out and test and all that.

23:22 I love that, and I think that's a great point in terms of that's a kind of narrative also that I think the future needs, right or that we need to be able to tell better right. And then part of it, I think is because you know, I don't know, some symptom of hustle culture. I think, right, they're like get out there and make things and like don't talk about the chat like I mean, it's social media fined in terms of like, here's the five awesome things I made this week, and not the three hundred hours I spent coding it and with my head banging against the wall for three. Months, you know. But then you know, so I think there's that, But I think that it's a great point that like actual makers and actual folks like have a kind of humility, and especially like you find too with experts with craft, it's like they're rarely like, look, how awesome I am. It's more just like I made this thing that I love or I'm passionate about, and it was actually a huge pain in the ass to put together. But I'm really glad that it's here and it's going to break tomorrow, but I'm glad that it's here today, and there's there's not a need to kind of prove, you know, in that regarding that's a really interesting point that I'm also now reflecting sideways thinking that like, especially with anthropology as a as a theoretical discipline, primarily that like we're seeing more it's ironic we say it's a theoretical discipline, but like seventy percent of the anthropologies actually work outside of academia.

24:28 So it's a. Weird anyway, also a weird story, but there's this this other kind of funny point of that, you know, even when you're trying to make something like a theoretical contribution, which I think it also agree is super important for how we can then both understand disciplinary interested plenty thinking, but then also helping us understand the world requires humility too, right, It's like we can't really have kind of hubris all the. Time with it. What's interesting is something that else a colleagues and I where we did this kind of speculative fiction exercise at a conference earlier this year, and it reminded me kind of some of the stories work that you do and talk about the book too, and I probably took it back to the book to and I know we're kind of like circuitting around. It's all connected, right, you know. But one of the things that we were working with this was this speculative idea in terms of like what if social science disciplines and we included design thinking in this.

25:16 In this process of design design. As a as A as a friend field had more kind of societal power to shape institutions in fifty years. And let's pretend that is the case. And so let's then work backwards from that and figure out, hey, what does it looked like in that future, and then let's come and work backwards of how we got there. And it was a really interesting. Exercise because we kind of up sprung it on people, and then it was kind of cool to say, you can take an institution like government or education and then tell us where we are in fifty years with anthropologists and designers running the companies, and then go backwards and then how we got there and like what some of those pieces were. And one of the themes that kind of came out a lot was both this like deep understanding of interconnectivity between different areas and disciplines, but also this importance of locality, right, and that we are all im placed and embodied somewhere. We don't all just exist out in like the nebulous institution that we often you know, get told that we are either on uh, you know, some media channels or just in general just okay, it's the we get masked as groups of people, right, but we're all individuals and we have.

26:19 Bodies that were in certain places in certain times. And it's like this interesting idea of how do we think about the stories that are helpful for us and which ones are not. And the one thing that I thought was really interesting that you all said in the book, and Scott, I'll start with you in this question, is that you both said that like all design begins as. Fictions, right. I think it's a really interesting idea both bringing us to the I think a great idea of a humility question there too when we think of this. And so I'm kind of curious in your perspective on one hand, like how does your experience with storytelling right through film through through other kinds of media as well, like kind of a shape the way you think about design and this idea that narrative and storytelling and design go well together and are necessary for us to think about what we want to either ask questions about or where the future might take us.

27:05 Yeah, that's a lot of that is in a chapter we call make Believe, which is one of our intangibles, which are the things that are hard to see but actually are very influential. And I will say, first off is just design is two thirds make believe, right, Like you have to kind of let your mind imagine what could be and that frankly and I would say I would say anthropology has this as well, but I'd be up for disagreement if you don't think so. But like there's a naive tay to it right, and make believe is kind of dangerous or vulnerable because you have to go in and say things that are may not fit. They might be stupid, they might be out there saying. With anthropology, you're kind of recognize things in a way that other people haven't talked about them yet. Maybe you're trying to describe it in a way that it hasn't been described. So you're putting yourself out there all the time.

27:53 But that first step of make believe then allows something that doesn't exist to have a path to become real, and generally, like the further out there you get. I think of you know, the world as having this sort of gravity that pulls you down to normal. You know, like whatever you do, eventually it's going to land or it's just going to float off into space. So the ability to follow something further allows you to get a little bit further in terms of what you're creating. So if you can make believe in a big way, you're going to get further in reality. But then at the same time, a narrative is really important because it allows you to get into a level of detail, like the story that you were talking about at that conference. I love that.

28:33 So you went, you went, and you got to the assumption, and then you're pulling back what's the history that got us there? And that's the interesting part is like what has to happen to make that happen? And does it happen well? And you get into a level of detail that's so far beyond just like a metaphor or a speculation or just saying like well, what if this is going to happen or the future would be great if blah blah blah. You have to get into a level of detail which gets you into the day to day. It gets you into a level of function, It gets you into the pass gating impacts, like the second order effects. So really, I think make believe in narrative are actually under you know. You think when I say make believe, it sounds like something kids do, right, But actually this is how we get beyond where we are, you.

29:15 Know, Yeah, And it's it's I think it's a great point. And I love that. I did too, and I agree that it's it's a fundamental part of how we make sense of our world, right, is that it's because on the one hand, it's like all stories are made up, they're all make believe, but at the same time they're also true, you know, and there's there's manily there's truth to them, but it's not that they're not straight up, you know, factually correct. But on the one hand too, when it comes to narratives right as a as a directive in the way of kind of helping shape how we can tell the stories, I think I think you said that really well, it's an important point about getting us further right. And this is something that I worked in corporate research for years and in that looking at at consumer I guess consumer insights and foresights and using kind of big data and ethnography plandet. Together. Then something that really stood out to me is when we were doing research for entertainment company, they were asking us, you know, what's the future of entertainment in consumer mindsets?

30:03 Like how are folks talking about it online? Kind of the kind of thing. And one of the things that really stood out was that, you know, it's fun to see what movies and TV shows and stuff folks are talking about. But there was a recognition like happening kind of at the level of kind of cultural conversation that what stories were told will shape and limit also what we think is possible. And so if we're. Only ever told the terminator and matrix narrative dystopics of that's what AI is, then that's what people are going to think it is, you know, and even if it doesn't doesn't come to fruition, like, that's still this conversational point and it was kind of cool to recognize that there's there's that awareness there too, that like we both need more than one kind of story, and that also we understand that the stories that we tell do shape how we approach what we think is possible, you know, what we can do. And that's that's an important point, I think because kind of as you'all tackle also in the book too, is that this kind of noticing takes work right. It's an important and it's a difficult thing to think about and see these intangibles of these these like you know, forces that kind of shape how like the affordances of what's possible, but also what's able or to be able to think, and and also you know whether their physical material constraints, whether there are kind of a cultural norm and or there's only so much oxygen in the atmosphere, you know. So it's like all these things that we can't see, but they're going to shape what we can do in that design space. But we need we need to kind of be more aware of that as we go forward. And so I'm kind of curious, like as we think about this. You know, another story that stood out to me was the kind of Apple and Amazon one. You know, again, all these like are a little bit little, which I love, and also I'm terrified of like you know, they're they're black mirror ish

31:35 because they're like again, they're understandable. Some of them is parts of them are existing now and other of us are taking us in these weird arenas of what what could be, you know, but it's like we often don't recognize. To your point, I think it's something that can you cover really well across the book, is that we don't often see those potential consequences as the potential ripples, right, and so these intangibles because they're as we're saying, they're hard to see. So I want to like think about that, how do we you know, you. Know, take a what sounds familiar, like they do have a cut that sounds familiar to us, but like you kind of break it down slightly a different way, and so walk us through that idea of like how do these like seemingly small actions that may don't feel like they're connected actually kind of super far reaching consequences. I'm not going to say, butterfly if like I just did I guess pretend I didn't, But you know, how do we think about that this idea of connections in a new way?

32:19 Well, connection, I mean connections as a whole in a new way. Maybe I'll talk about connections as a whole in new way and then lob it to Scott to give us some more detail about Apple and the Amazon. But we think of everything from data to technology to products, experiences, systems, and then the implications both you know, intended and unintended consequences of our work as all being highly intertwined and essentially meaning like I'm holding a can of sparkling water here and I could this is a physical product, but you know, and it has graphic design on it, and it creates this like experience of refreshment for me, right, Like somebody designed the experience of like opening it. There's many systems that involved in both like getting the aluminum of the can, the water within it, the distribution of these cans around. Like, there's so many systems that went into giving this moment to me. There's the technology of like how the pop top on a can works that was designed that's being used here, and even like the size of it so that they nest neatly within each other and within stores without toppling over. And then there's like data that went into it too, both in terms of like what size should it be for consumption and to price it correctly for consumers, but then also like

33:50 it fits quite nicely in an adult hand. You know, if this was huge, I wouldn't be able to hold it. And you could also propagate that out to like if you had any sort of you know, disability that prevented you from holding something right, like, you wouldn't be included in this. So like there's implications both you know, for the experience of drinking all the way to like how this company makes money off of this all the way to like who's not able to participate in using this product or not? Right, And so you can do that kind of extension of interconnectivity for absolutely anything, and that's what's both like wild, but also you can't your your work never is never just your work. It's always affecting things, even if that wasn't part of your directive or your intention.

34:48 And the Apple story, Scott, I'll let you tell more about it, but that really brings that to life in a like one click forward from today. Way, and it's about how data connects to everything now and how the flow of data kind of changes the flow of our society. So, you know, we're in Silicon Valley and you know, I go down to visit some of these larger companies. They have their own bus lines, you know, so you're down that there's one in particular where you're in the bottom level and it feels like you're in a bus depot, like Grand Social station. It's just like buses coming in and dropping people off. And then of course they've got daycare. And then they're actually building housing, but not just housing for people who work there, but low income housing for the neighborhood. So data has created these really really mega corporations. These are the most wealthy, you know, like Apple as an example, the most wealthy corporations ever to exist ever by a lot, and that then puts them in a situation where like they're starting to become responsible for things that only government could do.

35:50 We talked about scale earlier, and like it used to be that, like you know, rockets going to space was a government thing, was a government thing. Bus lines were a government thing. You know, all this stuff was really only could only be done at the scale of government. So this data flow is actually like putting corporations in the territory of responsibility, that's overseeing the public good. And so in the story, Apple, which is now worth nine trillion in you know, whatever time this story takes place, decides that it needs to save the Amazon rainforest to save its customer base so that it can you know, stave off climate change. And then so it starts with these drones that are down in the forest trying to survey the forest. But there's a there's a thing there where it's like, yeah, that that's not that outlandish, that it might be cost effective for them to do something like that at some point, which just seems different. You know, We're just trying to point like things shift and they get different, and when they get different. They're different now, you know, and now you know those companies not only have to take on that responsibility, but then we have to trust them with that responsibility. And is that how we want our trust to be placed? I'm not I'm nothing against the corporations. It's just like, is that where we want the trust, where it's interconnected to these certain you know, business needs that they have to have or or do they even want that responsibility?

37:16 You know? And it's it's an interesting thing that's already happening, but this is an extreme example. Yeah, but also kind of like what you're saying there too is that it's it's both extreme and not that extreme, which is the which is kind of a crazy point, right when you say, Okay, it's actually that's not that's the logical three steps from here, and that raises important questions. I mean it's interesting too because it's like you know, we've i think for for a long time. You know. That's that's in part of in terms of like what is our responsibility as as citizens? Right, you kind of saw these interesting intermingling stories like Idea has been talking about this for years in terms of like helping resigned voting systems right or kind of helping school education systems in the US and other countries. And we see frogmy and I know D School has done a ton of projects and work around this area too, And so it is this interesting question too of uh, where does responc onssibility lie for this this kind of work?

38:01 And you know, part. Of it, I think this interesting challenge also that that y'all tackle in the book too, is this idea of like how do we both be aware of these kinds of dynamics of responsibility, like you know, and where does tech and power and data and how did these pieces play together? But then how do we make responsible choices? But then also how do we help things bigger than ourselves also make responsible choices? Right? Because it's one of those. Things too that you know, we see it and pick any consumer survey right now, and it's like there's a there's a concern that like recycling just gets lobbied onto me. It's like I've got I'm the one that has to then take care of like all the end of end of the last mile products, right, and that point it's like up to me to kind of reduce and recycle when my neighborhood doesn't even recycle, and so stop putting plastic in my products, you know, And this kind of interesting conversation where it's like, well, who's is it?

38:46 Procter and gamblers? It me like how do we do this? Or maybe it's it's obviously somewhere in between, but like this this interesting challenge point, like how do we think about this idea of responsibility? And then the ongoing role of data as part of that too is becoming such an interesting piece, right, like to see surveillance, but then also even these notions of like how do we think about what. We should have and what do we want? Right? And it's interesting to see Apple kind of even today talk about like privacy, they see it, they talk about as a human right. It's this kind of fundamental piece and it's an interesting question when they have a partnership with open Ai now that to bring GPT to iPhones and it's like, you know, okay, you may not use my data for training data. However, like what else have I opted into that I'm thinking about this that I just said yes to using an app or you know that that is actually already watching everything as part of that, and so I'm kind of bouncing here between the idea of like thinking about responsibility for what we design and then the what we want to get out of stuff, And part of that is like this emotional piece, and there's something else that's really interesting. I want to I want to kind of talk a little bit about it.

39:43 Is like circumstances, feelings, ideas loop that we kind of find ourselves into, and that like emotional design. We see it talked about a little bit more, but it's not something that we talk about a lot. And that's an interesting piece, Like we'll see user experience that you actually kind of talk about making the experience of a website or like an app better, which is good. And then Chris what you're saying before too, they're like even when you have achanic, there was an experience designed around like the pop tab and the sound and that the colors and so there's all these pieces. So I'm curious like how emotions like influence our design decisions, but then also like why do they feel like they're so often overlooked when we're talking about design, Like how did you guys at tackle this this idea? How can we tackle the idea? I guess, yeah, I mean, the main thing is, I think emotions have gotten factored into design from like the experience, the end user experience part of it, right, like as a way to you know, sell it or make it more enjoyable. But really the core thing is that emotions dictate almost everything we do. So there's a lot of research about how emotions focus your attention, they trigger decisions, and they motivate you to do things.

40:50 Right. So, like, as a creator, I'm being motivated by first of all, I'm focusing on something by my emotions. Then I'm motivated to do something, and then it shaping the decision that I make. So the role that they play and the role that we give them are totally different. It's way more out of an outsized influence than we think. So that's on the designer hand and then on the you know, receiving end of that. The Internet, as an example, was really created as a way to move information quickly, right, and it's great at that, but as we know that quick movement of information is overloading our emotional systems, you know, like social media has turned into kind of just this outrage machine. You know, there's a tagline where enragement equals engagement, you know, and that's part of So it's not that we're not then the emotions are baked in, but we're not really grappling with like how important that is and how profound it is in how we relate to each other and who we are as a society. And even the companies that were so like YouTube's famous for really creating an algorithm that would keep you held right, like they had engaged hours as the goal, right, that was the metric, and then the algorithm would just be like, well, whatever engages them more, I'm going to serve up more of that. And they've actually done a pretty good job of taking that, tamping that down over the last five years.

42:13 But five years previously, it was just like they weren't even thinking about it. It's just like the let's let the algorithm adjust to whatever engagement is. But if you know that engagement is an over emotional reaction and you know that that's not great, then you know that should be factoring into the design, which eventually it has. But it took a minute, right for us to realize that, or for folks to realize that. Yeah, it's interesting piece because it's like it on the one hand, raises questions about what's the point of like being aware of emotions, you know, for a company. But then the other tide is like what's their their kind of question? The profit moment, which we talked about with Apple too, I think is an important point of like, yeah, if we're having our outrage machine, I think is the right description there of.

42:54 Most social media. And something that that had me thinking about too is on the one hand, trust, like we often don't trust these organizations. We trust them to do what we think they're gonna do, which is keep us online longer, which is not not maybe what our own self interest, your goals are, right, and so so I think part of it is is that question too and the other side and this isn't fused across a lot of most of your stories that I also liked, and you mentioned this up top two is just like the connections and relations between people, right, as part of that's obviously a huge emotional driver too, right, and that's social media is basically just a disconnected form of emotional connection between people, amplified and. Weird ways, you know. But it's like ir relationality is a huge piece of how of how y'all explore and talk about what the future could be. And so I'm kind of curious about this, this process to exire. I thought, this is really powerful and in an important way. I mean even I'm thinking of the story of the the you know, resurrected Mom that like the siblings get in a fight over, you know, in terms of because they change the version of Mom, which is a crazy idea to think about, right that, like, hey, this is what's what Mom one point two? No, no, I want Mom one point whatever. One point Oh, you know, like it's very weird. She's different now. So I mean, you know, a little bout the story maybe, but just also just I want to get your thoughts on this idea of relationality as as one of these centerpieces of how we can talk about what the future could be or like how we think about I guess responsibility too.

44:13 I think there's something else that came to mind there too. Well, we're never We're always going to be relating to each other, right, Like, no matter what our technology is doing, humans, we're not going to evolve that fast as the technology is moving. So we can't we can't. We have to keep trying on, Like what's it going to do with our relationships because that those are the wonky arguments that we're going to be having at home, is how the technology has affected us. And that's why that theme is pervasive across everything is because it affects not only us inner personally, but then also like how organizations work with us. As you were a friend to earlier, like minor data, When does that app that I presumably subscribed to use start using me in my life data in return? Like whether or not I can like sort of half consent it to it. So those relationships, whether it's between us in organizations or us interpersonally, like, that's it, Like that's what we're going to have to reckon with. You want to say more about about the stories.

45:17 Yeah, I was going to say, Like the the question at the end of the story kind of is like have they solved the problem they were trying to solve with this resurrecting of the mom right, And it's clear probably they haven't. And so one of the questions is like is this technology going to fix the relational trouble that we have or is it deeper? You know? And also as we bring in technologies into our relationship, it's going to shift our culture and as that's something we want. Like I think if people who you know are very concerned, say about family values, I feel like the hardest thing on families has been increased speed of transportation, right, Like the fact that you can get further faster has you know, done more to kind of undermine family relationships than almost anything.

46:01 And so the question is like, what what will these technologies do? What do we value? What do we want? You know, do they care about their relationship or do they care about having some sort of nostalgia for this mom that they had? You know, like what is the real problem that we're trying to solve with this stuff? Because I think oftentimes we're creating technologies that are looking for a problem. It's kind of a solution without a problem. And I think you can see that with AI for sure, with generative AI in particular. Yeah. Yeah, that's a great example and a great point. And I agree there too that it's like there's an excitement excitement in terms of making new technologies and having them come out. But something that I find tricky, I don't have an answer for it, and that's keep standing out is that we see a lot of especially technologists and surprisingly talk about technological development of especially on generative AI as inevitabilities, and it's it's an interesting idea of recognizing it.

46:54 I come back to your point. You know that you say that all design begins as fiction, right, and then that make believe is a huge piece of all of this. And it's like this interesting idea of like what stories that we choose to tell and then who tells them? Right? And it's not that say that they are it is or is not inevitable. But it's an interesting question that I've I've wrestled with that. I hear it oftentimes, you know, talking with technologists and and but I mean other folks as well, just as we think about like oh yeah this is gonna happen, Well, someone's going to make it, so I might as well just make it. You know that that kind of idea, and that's an interesting way to approach a problem. And it's like, I wonder how much often is as you're saying, Scott, that it's actually a you know, it's a solution in search of a problem versus actually like we're solving a need that we know needs to be solved, Especially because like the idea of relationships and relationality as oftentimes unintended collateral. Right, they're like either caused a different problem or it's like the technology we thought we're solving a problem was actually like not at all dressing the actual problem. It was just it was doing something else, which was being shiny and flashy and seeming cool, but then didn't actually improve our relationship with my siblings.

47:54 You know, or or my mom for that matter, you know. And that's an interesting conundrum because you know, outputs are getting also flashier and better, Like that's a that was a really flashy can that you also showed, Chris. It's like even like that, like the design of like physical simple things too is like getting really good that evoking reactions from us, right, and like hopefully cans don't get to outrage reaction level, but just like you know, there's this idea that like we're getting pulled in a lot of directions a lot of times, right, and how we can think about that that way of like where do we want to go versus just what's get thrown at what's getting thrown at us? And like how can we deal with that? And there is an easy fix, though, which is that our stories could represent more of us.

48:37 And you know, I mean you you said it, you said it before. At I'm like the pervasiveness and if you look at the stories that are told, at least in the United States, they're they're white male stories, both creator and who's starring in them. And so like that that has limited what we both imagine. But also like where scientific research has gone, like we're funding for new ideas has gone, right, Like that storytelling itself has had widespread consequences and now we have at least an awareness of that, and it is more talked about in society, but it was such. As long a long distance to go. So like any one of us can include more diverse stories, more stories with people of a range of genders, and in in what we're both in envisioning as well as telling to others.

49:26 Beautiful point. I think it's exactly right. And let's I mean, let's use that as a jumping point to kind of think about. You know, the entire second half we talked to some of these some of these already, but the entire second half of your book is dedicated to helping us think about these kind of actionable things. We have a lot of intangibles of kind of defining these problems spaces. But then I think that's a great example there too in terms of like who's at your storytelling table and also what narratives are you consuming or participating in, you know, and recognizing the storyteller as much as the story being told, right and to your point there is hugely important, you know. And so I love the idea of like being awkward as. A solution space. It's actionable that we can kind of learn to sit with the kind of the discomfort of the one of the cognitive distance of like, oh, actually I've only been consuming one kind of story that's kind of embarrassing, right, uh, and and or like recognizing that. Yeah, but I also kind of love that that, you know, hot dogs, I don't really want to not eat them, you know, and like how do I how do I kind of think about that process?

50:20 So yeah, kind of walk walk me through a couple. Of these ideas like that that maybe maybe some of your favorites what that stood out, like, so we can talk about the awkward if you want to go more into that. I love that idea, But just like, how do we get some of these ideas like what can we do, how do we find our kind of pathway forward? And so beginning with the idea of stories, I think is a really wonderful thing. I'm always a fan of being awkward. So what else stands out is as ways that we can kind of find pathways forward to kind of plug ourselves into the future that we would like to see. Well, I love awkwardness too. I feel like for maybe ten years in my Twitter handle I had something like awkwardness enthusiastic that that's my That's like the main descriptor of who I am, right, and like I think, I think I love it and because that it hits you in the gut when you are out of place such that you feel awkward or you would see it in somebody else sometimes too right, And it's really clear often if you're traveling right and you're in a different culture, or you see a tourist something clearly a tourist is if you know, if you show up at San Francisco in the summertime and like shorts and a T shirt, you're gonna freeze right because there's so much fog, and you wouldn't think that, and so like right away, you just like if you're a local, you kind of chuckle at that, like the tourists that all have to go by the big San Francisco hoodies because they did show up with the right outfits, right, So it's it's it's little moments like that though, that like you notice when you're out of place that we

51:53 try to often get rid of them right away, right, We try to blend in, We try to mitigate that feeling that you're out of place. But like what we like to talk about in this book is like what if if you just sit with it for a second and that awkwardness becomes the highlight. Scott and I were just in New York talking about the book in a few different ways, and we went up to the high Line and I'd never been up there before and Scott has been has been there and used to live in New York, and he's like, oh, you got to see these areas of the Highline where they have built in these windows that are just like overlooking traffic, right, And it's like it's one of those things where we were sitting there where watching like traffic out a window. So there's like literally nothing that should be engaging, but it's just like a fascinating that that was the thing, right, and it just like throws it's like at this other way of viewing viewing like you know, if we were just down on street level, like amongst the traffic are in it, you might be annoyed. But like put you in this position that's like a little bit like an awkward angle to view traffic and like an awkward thing to do, and like then it becomes fascinating. Then you see the dynamics of like where do the cars go, do they come in ways? How people interacting and you're you're you start to be clued in, like so that

53:23 like paying attention to that, those moments where you're viewing something from a different angle like start to heighten all of your senses. Yeah, that's a great example to it. And it's funny because it's something that yeah, you'd be like, oh, yeah, we went to New York and watch traffic. You're like cool. But you know what you like when you when. You change the you change the framework, and it's like actually really interesting and fascinating process to realize why does traffic flow that way? You know, and why are we seeing like the cars you know, move in this way? And then It makes you think, wait, how does traffic work and my home and how does it work in this country over here? And like it kind of you can cascade into these whole different ways of realizing that traffic is actually a super fascinating and weird super organism almost you know, of beings moving back and forth.

54:06 You know, Yeah, there's so much about that back section that actionable as we call them, is just about looking at the world differently so you can expose the things that you're missing. We found this great James Baldwin quote as we were researching the book, which is the purpose of art is to lay bare the questions hidden by the answers. And I think you could say that about anthropology, you could say that about design, you can say that about science, right, And it's looking at things as they are to try and figure out, like, well, what are we missing? What other things could be here? Right? And I think that example Chris talked about where you're watching the traffic, it's sort of like put you in this fascination with the way things are, and you start to think about, like why is that this way? You know, why are we all driving cars through this city? In fact, I would say the last time. I hadn't been to New York since before the pandemic, and it was noticeably quieter because the number of electric cars and taxis, and it just had a totally different feel. And also Broadway, where you were staying on Broadway and it had been blocked off, and there's you know, there are all these areas where you can walk now down Broadway and it's just a different thing. And you know, twenty years ago, I would never have thought they would block off Broadway.

55:18 It just seems like a ridiculous idea. But it totally works and it hasn't affected the traffic very much, and it feels great. And so like your ability to see things differently than leads to an ability to do things differently, and so a lot of the back half is just like how do we look at what is and see it as what could be or what might be or why is it this way? And then that opens up that make believe space for a possibility and you can move from there. I love it super well said, and I think that, you know, I definitely came away from you know, I've been telling people about this book for a month now because it's like it's such an interesting way, and I think it's nice to have, I guess, an optimistic approach to like how we can actually design the future that we want, you know, and as we think about that, you know, it's something you said A top two that I'm still thinking about here rallying around in the cage is that, like there was the we don't want to kind of go the dystopic or necessarily utopic pathway, but there's like this interesting third space that I recently more came across school, like the protopia, right, this idea of like how do we move towards a more positive future space?

56:15 And that's kind of one of the things that I've I've come away from this from reading and we're talking with y'all, and so I'm kind of curious, like how do you I guess this one like distillation right in this idea of like what what can folks kind of walk away from this saying Okay, I now either know what to do and or I feel really good about understanding what problem spaces are, you know, like what do you want folks to kind of come away from this and be able to do with the with the book and the ideas. I would love for everybody both to feel agency to notice and name what feels totally bizarre. So like this idea of naming your monsters is something else that we have in the back half, which is the idea of like I see this real phenomenon happening in the world, and it makes me feel uneasy because so much of it, much of it is unknown, right, Like that's a monster.

57:03 We got to get better at talking about that type of thing because it exists in all of us, and it helps keep the issues that are happening with our technology and our climate, like it. Keeps them in the public psyche. So I want I would love for people to get better at that that type of notice and name, as well as just being aware that like everything we build will affect everything else and how can we do that with that? With that humility, Yeah. That's that humility I think, like I want people to have excitement for their own ignorance. For ignorance is like a willful ignorance, but it's like there's something special about what you don't know, and I think it makes us uncomfortable to admit that we don't know things, or you know, it feels like that's going to mean that we're not going to be able to navigate the things we need to do. But like, I feel like if you can have excitement to discover what you don't know, I think you could shift how we work together, what we discover, how we make our way through this sort of really difficult time. And it's kind of an absurd idea that we would know everything, and yet we kind of want to, you know, we kind of click to that a little bit.

58:14 I do it all the time totally. No, I think both I think really great positions and important pieces for us to digest and then think thing through where it's it's like we can both celebrate what we don't know, which is I think a good idea, right, but then also the idea of like our crassy to learn and understand things together right and to be able to recognize how we can work together in these in these bigger ways. I think that has been great. So I just want to say huge thank you too both for joining me on the POTEA. That has been a super fun conversation. I get really enthus and excited about the books, so thank you for putting out in the world. I'm excited for folks to check it out. And yeah, is there anything else that's on your mind that we haven't talked about that you want to say, Oh, actually, we should definitely hit this point, leave that space just in case that's that's something on.

58:57 Your mind, and we can we can go from there. It's okay. If not, no, I mean, I want to say thank you to you, Adam. I feel like we did hit a lot of territory and that was really cool. And I have one more thing to share when we're done that. I don't have enough research on to say for real, but I think you'll find it. I'm atrigued. Yeah, I thought it was a great combo. Thanks Adam, awesome. Thank you so much. It's been a lot of fun and hopefully more in the future.