This Anthro Life

This Anthro Life

Unearth the creative potential of humanity with This Anthro Life, a podcast exploring culture, design, business, and technology. Spearheaded by acclaimed Anthropologist Dr. Adam Gamwell, This Anthro Life equips leaders, individuals, and organizations to shape a more human and compassionate future. TAL helps broaden perspectives and fortify decision-making skills by fostering a profound understanding of culture coupled with the transformative power of storytelling.With curated conversations and thought-provoking discussions featuring humanity's top makers and minds, prepare to have your perspective transformed. This Anthro Life delves into various facets of human society—from examining the complexities of cultural identity to understanding the influence of technology on our everyday lives.🌍 Change Your PerspectiveExplore the complexities of life in a simple and engaging way. From AI and robotics revolutionizing the nature of work to emojis changing how we communicate, we delve into the forces shaping our world. No topic is off-limits—fossil fuels and their impact on our planet, the race to find alternative energy solutions, and so much more.🎙️ Captivating ConversationsGo beyond surface-level discussions with deep dives into fascinating topics. Dr. Adam Gamwell's interviews are thought-provoking, enlightening, and always entertaining. Carefully crafted questions ensure engaging conversations that are free from jargon, making them accessible to listeners of all backgrounds.Join us on this captivating voyage of storytelling at the crossroads of culture, design, technology and business. We're excited to collaborate with you in shaping a more compassionate world through an enriched narrative of the human experience. Experience breakthrough perspectives on human experiences and come away equipped to make enriched decisions that contribute positively to your sphere. Together we can shape a more connected, hopeful narrative one human story at a time.

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Nov. 11, 2024

Stop Chasing Goals – Do THIS Instead

Hey everyone! In this episode of This Anthro Life, I’m thrilled to sit down with Dr. Anne-Laure Le Cunff, neuroscientist, founder of Nest Labs, and author of Tiny Experiments: How to Live Freely in a Goal-Obsessed World.

Hey everyone! In this episode of This Anthro Life, I’m thrilled to sit down with Dr. Anne-Laure Le Cunff, neuroscientist, founder of Nest Labs, and author of Tiny Experiments: How to Live Freely in a Goal-Obsessed World. We dive into why our approach to goals is broken, how procrastination might actually be trying to help us, and the surprising power of tiny experiments to transform your life. It’s a conversation packed with insights on rethinking success, embracing a cyclical mindset, and finding joy in the present.

We're back! After some time away, This Anthro Life returns with fresh episodes and engaging conversations. If you enjoy this episode, we’d love your support.

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Welcome to this after life.

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Everybody really excited to have you joining us today, as

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always in your host Edam Gainwell, I'm thrilled to be

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joined today with doctor and Laura Lecon. She's the founder

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of nest Labs and the author of a really really

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cool fourth coming book I'm excited to dive into today

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with y'all. It's called Tiny Experiments how to live freely

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in a goal obsessed world, and this is something that

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definitely resonated with me as someone who is both goal

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obsessed and trying to get out of that circuit.

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So and Lork, thank you so much for joining me

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on the podcast today.

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Thanks so much for having me. I'm so excited to

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chat out.

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So one thing that I'm really particularly excited to talk

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with you about is the way that your work intersects

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with some of the most pressing questions that a lot

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of us are facing today, and things like how do

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I find fulfillment in a world that I think it's

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pushing me in one direction, you know, go get this degree,

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get this job, do this thing, x y Z. You know,

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it's always this very linear kind of path, and we're

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finding ourselves in these worlds of different kind of limits now,

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whether it's thinking about the mental health that I have,

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the kind of work that I want to do, the

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environmental constraints that like I feel like the linear path

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doesn't quite doesn't quite work, you know, as as it

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seemed like it used to. And then there's just the

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other side of the equation that's like, how do we

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both best draw from kind of modern science and contemporary

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thinking as well as like the wisdom of past and

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present cultures of of you know, how people lived well

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in the past. Right, how do I like think about

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all these pieces together? And so I think it's exciting

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because your work brings us right into the center of

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this this area and again something that's super relevant because

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we're seeing more and more younger generations talking about mental

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health and what pathways need.

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To be for life.

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So I think to kind of kick us off, you know,

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one of the areas that I think encapsulates this is

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that you that you kind of talk about, is that

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our kind of pathway of setting goals is broken. And

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I love this idea because I agree, you know, but

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I think it's it's something that we find ourselves hitting

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walls so many times. So like, let's kind of open

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that up and start us here in terms of like

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what what what is it like?

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How do we great goals make?

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It seems like something you can't really break, but we

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somehow manage to do it.

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Yeah, So if you kind of go back to the

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most common definition of goals, the one that most people

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are using, it really means getting to a specific destination.

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Right.

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We define where we want to get what success means

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to us, and then we work really really hard to

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get there. And then two things might happen. Either you

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don't get there and you're deeply and happy about that

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and dissatisfied because you feel like you feel or interestingly,

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you get there and you're also disappointed because you thought

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that by getting there, all of a sudden everything would

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be perfect, you'd be happy, you'd get everything you desire,

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and you realize that actually this goal doesn't unlock infinite happiness.

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And then there's maybe another goal now that you can chase.

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So it's this infinite treadmill. We're all on chasing the

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next goal one after the other without ever feeling fulfilled.

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That's really how we manage our goals today. If you

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I loved how you mentioned connecting scientific with them, but

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also antioned philosophical wid because if you go back to

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how scientists approach progress and success, for scientists, success is

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not getting to a specific destination, is just learning something new.

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As long as you've learned something new, this is success.

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And that may not look like what you have predicted

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when we started, right, and this looks like for a scientists,

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like a cycle of experimentation. They ask a question, They're like, Okay,

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what is going on here, Let's formulate the research question,

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let's test it, and then let's see what happens. Right, Well,

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those cycles of growth is really how a lot of

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ancient civilizations and ancient philosophies recommend the way you approach

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human growth as well. Right, It's all fields and cycles

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and circles and seasons. It's never that very linear path

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that is predetermined and that you have to follow with

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specific milestones and goals that are that mean failure if

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you don't reach them. Right, It's about transformation and reinventing yourself.

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So to me, that's the main thing about reinventing our

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relationship to goals is really letting go of this linear

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approach to them and having a more psychical.

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I love that idea too, and it is it is

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something interesting too that you know, I was always when

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I was studying anthropology as a you know, in school

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back in the day, it was like I guess I

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still study it today too, but like, you know, when

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I was formally studying it, you know, I would always

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be intrigued when we would find a group or culture

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or you know, when folks were talking about the syxical

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notion of time versus a linear notion, and like, even

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thinking about that is really interesting when one we kind

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of talk about, you know, time moves forward, right.

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We even used like the idea of progress right when

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you write about in the book too, of this idea of.

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Like progress is a directional or like a kind of

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orientation that we're moving in a certain you know, pathway,

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and like that, like, I think we often don't always

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connect the idea of like time as being linear and

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then also our goals as a thing that like we

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move forward and do x y z blah blah, even

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though like that's one hundred percent how we make it

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to do right and how we think about the.

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Pathway that we're going down.

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But then the right's idea of like seasons is a

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great example there of like we all know what a

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season like, there's four of them, you know, and they

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move and they move our year in a way. And

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like recognizing that idea is super fun. Then that of

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course I'm going to put my nerd hat and be like,

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oh yeah, we can talk about chakras and wheels too,

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and like everything is kind of turning and moving in

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and on itself in cyclical and spiral time, and so

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that is I think a very cool way to help

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us ref rethink that.

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And so I'm curious about this too, because the other.

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Thing that you said here that was was I want

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to think with is like they did when we were

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talking about what scientific you know, thinking is doing, and

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like we talk about what you predict something that will

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happen and make a hypothesis that I'm going to do X,

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and then we're going to see why I result, and

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if we do or don't see it, that's still helpful.

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And this is something that that I've seen too in.

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Terms of you know, publication around kind of pure reviewed

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journal articles that there's like a positivity bias, like I

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want to publish that something happened, meaning there's there's an

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anti negativity bias not that like we don't want to

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say negative result, but we don't want to say something

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nothing happened. But that's totally useful for science too, to

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say we did not find and the change when we

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did X, you know, and like why didn't happen? And

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so even this interesting idea that that like I'm curious

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how we think about this, Like when we say we

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predict the thing, we want to see a kind of

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positive change results, and like we look away from one

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that that feels negative, and so that kind of pushes

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I feel like it builds a bit of that linearity

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right where it's like if I don't see a specific

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type of change that I that I predict I'm going

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to see, then it somehow it doesn't doesn't count.

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Does that Does that work?

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M I love? I love that you're mentioning this because

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you know there's a big movement at the moment in

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science for open science and pre registering studies during your

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study is basically posting your protocol online for everybody to see,

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and then you run the study, and then you can't

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go back and change the pole or what you were

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you were you said you were going to do based

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on the results, which sounds crazy that this is not

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the norm, right, It's not so, so you're forced to

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accept and to publish whatever results you get, whether positive

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or negative, or whatever results you get, you have to

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publish them. And I feel like in the way that

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you manage your goals and the way you design personal experiments,

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which I took about in the book, this is why

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it's so important to define what is the experiment you're

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going to run, and what are the parameters, and to

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stick to it until the end of the experiment, and

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to really withhold judgment until you're done. So, for example,

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if you say that you're going to run an experiment

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of publishing a new podcast episode every week for a

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six months, you can't stop in the middle and say, like, ef,

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I don't know like this and I'm not sure this

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is working and then decide that nothing happened and not

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learn anything from it. I mean, you can, but that

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wouldn't be a very good way or useful way of

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running an experiment. The useful way of doing this is

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you decide what you're going to do, you run the experiment,

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you collect all of that data without any judgment yet,

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and at the end of the experiment, You look and

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you reflect and you ask yourself, Okay, did I like this?

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Did I enjoy it? Was that good? What benefits did

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it bring? Or was that horrible? Maybe I hated every

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secle of it. And that's data too. That's also useful

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for you to learn and to grow and to decide

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what your next experiment is going to be. So you

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can also take some of that new approach to science

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that we have now that is more open and more honest,

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I want to say, and apply that to the way

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you run experiments and your day.

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I love that.

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Actually, yeah, it's because it's we do see like an

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ongoing conversations too, in terms of like a desire for

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more transparency and openness across the board, right, whether it

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is like how we're doing science, whether it's politics, you know,

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whether it's how I'm getting my degree, because it's like

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people love also these kind of more authentic conversations where

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it's like two people talking about their challenges working, getting

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a job, trying to find something out, versus like here's

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the five things you got to do to get your

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resume to have it ready for the you know whatever

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the interview and it's interesting to kind of kind of

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note that like there is this that desire to see

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and like that can be a place also to the

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notions of like kind of personal experimentation of of what

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I can do with my life, which I think, I

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think is really nice, especially because we're kind of seeing again,

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like we're running up to these these sort of different

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walls now or different kind of limitations of like this

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kind of linear path doesn't quite do it for me, right,

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And like especially you know, we're seeing you know obviously

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AI and things are changing in technology, you know, how

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we are learning, how we're playing and spending time together

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on social media this before, right, and kind of changing

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how we communicate with one another, so that this interesting

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idea of like we can't just keep doing what we've

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always done, right, we have to kind of rethink these pieces,

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and like I mean, I guess to help comcrotize this too. Also,

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like you know, you have a really interesting story also

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that you you know, you you did the tech you

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did the tech pathway right, you kind of found your

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way into the heart of the Google mecha, you know,

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and then realize that things weren't quite working out the

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way you had thought. And so I mean, tell folks,

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if you're not familiar with your story, like a little

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bit about how that happened and how that like kind

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of cracked open the idea of like, wait, let me

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rethink literally how I'm going to be doing my career

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pathway and my life could be.

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So I used to have I used to follow a

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very very linear care pathway. Actually I went to a

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pretty good school. I tried to get good grades, and

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then I got a job at Google. And once I

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found myself there, I discovered that they had an also

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fairly linear way of managing success, really defining it, codifying it,

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and then in a very kind of almost yeah, I

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guess Google is a company made of engineers, right, So

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they had really engineered what success looked like and how

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it worked inside of the company. So you had this

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red brick that was telling you exactly what to do,

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when to do it, what kind of projects to work on,

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what skills to be able to demonstrate, and if you

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did that, and if you followed that re brick, you

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would end up climbing the ladder again in a very

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linear way. But you had high visibility and clarity in

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terms of what success looked like. And I felt like

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which was a deep realization for me, but it really

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felt like to me after a while, as if someone

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had spoiled the movie. I knew exactly what was going

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to happen, and I somehow lost interest in the game

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because I knew exactly what would happen to the main character.

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When I left Google, I decided to start a startup,

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and that was also interesting because I really thought I

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was leaving that linear path, but I ended up repeating

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a lot of the same things that I was doing

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at Google. I tried to follow a playbook, I downloaded

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all of the case studies from other startups, and I

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tried to figure out how to climb that ladder just

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a different letter. And it's only when my startup failed

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and I found myself completely lost with no clear next

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run on the ladder that I could climb, that I

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had to finally stop and take a moment to reflect

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and ask myself, what is it that I truly want

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to explore? What am I actually curious about? If external

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validation and money was not part of the equation. What

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is something I would want to be doing every day

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when I wake up, even if nobody was watching. And

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for me, it's always been the brain. I've always been

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fascinated with the way we think, the way we feel,

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and so I went back to school to study neuroscience

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and ended up on the path that I am on today,

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which is very wiggly. I generally have no idea where

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I'm going. You know, I just wrote a book, i

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finished my PhD. I'm also running a small business, I'm

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running online, I'm doing a bit of speaking here and there.

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And the reason why I love this path today is

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that I have no idea what's going to happen in

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the movie. I don't know what's going to happen next,

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and I'm a little bit surprised almost every day with

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what's on my calendar. And I think that's the.

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Way that resonates.

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And I think that that's great too, that like you

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kind of recognize when things aren't working, like how do

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you then sort of reconjigure things? But then it's like

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it does require this moment. And something important that you're

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write about too is that we have to be okay

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with that discomfort of not really knowing what what is

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the next thing, But at the same time as as

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you know it too, like there's the when you have

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a curiosity mindset to it sentence says, Oh, this is exciting.

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I don't know what's going to happen. And this is

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one of these things. I mean, there's two things that.

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Actually stuck out there that I think are really important

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for us to think about. And I recognized when I was, like,

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you know, reading your story, that one can be in

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the kind of career treadmill and then both be burnt

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out by the work and like doing too much and

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then also bored at the same time, and like we

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also don't realize like those seem like they're antithetical, like

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how could I else both be like doing too much

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and be like I don't want to do any of this,

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you know, And like I've I've seen that in myself too,

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in terms of like you know, putting work in kind

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of the wrong pathway and then you realize that like

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you're doing both these and it's like the board parts,

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I think your point is really important. It's like I

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know where the movie goes. I know exactly how to

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what this ladder climbing would look like. I know where

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I would go, and I can see it like and

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like assessed to I want to be in that that

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spot you know, and at the same time, I'm so busy,

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I don't really have the energy to do that. And

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how do I put those two signals together and say, wait,

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maybe this is not the right piece. And the other

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side is is this notion of for some for many

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of us. I mean, it's scary to be like I

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don't know what the next thing would be, right, and

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so it's like this kind of curiosity versus kind of

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reactive mindset, and and so I'm curious, like to kind

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of help help folks think about how do we get

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out of this box? And I feel like I'm kind

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of stuck and I'm either burnt out and board or

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or one or the other. But I'm kind of afraid

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of like I don't know what to do next, right

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either if I don't have the resources or I don't

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know what the pathway, Like, how do I kind of

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help put that mindset together in terms of being more

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more curious versus reactive.

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I guess yeah, I think you'll you'll like that term,

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considering that you're an anthro apologized. But in the book

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I use the term self anthropology. And what I encourage

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people to do is, again, if you think about the

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scientific method and that cycle of experimentation. Scientists don't just

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start testing stuff right there's a phase of observation. You

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just observe how things are right now, and then you

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ask yourself, how could they be different or why they're

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working this way. Now, let's test this by designing an

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experiment and collect data. But it all starts always with observation.

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And what I call self anthropology in a bit of

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a cheeky way, is basically the idea that you're going

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to pretend that you're an anthropologist studying your own life

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and the same way an anthropologist goes and studies a

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different culture and look at it with fresh eyes, asking

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why are they doing things this way? Why are they're

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communicating this way? And why are you doing approaching this

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in disorder and not that one? Why is this more

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important to them than that other thing? And taking no

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and really again without any judgment, just looking at how

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things are working in that environment, you can learn a

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lot about your life and you can discover patterns that

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you may not have noticed in the past because of

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exactly what you just described earlier. You're so easy trying

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to climb that ladder that you never take the time

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to take a little step back and really ask yourself, wait,

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why am I even doing this thing? And why am

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I doing it this way? So I encourage people who

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are in this situation feeling a little bit stuck, not

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quite sure what to do next, to just go back

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to starting with observation. You don't need to have the

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solution yet, you don't need to have a plan yet.

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You just need to observe what is currently working, what

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is currently not working for you, just taking little notes

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and in a very practical way. An exercise that I

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do with members of my community is I tell them,

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for twenty four hours, you're becoming the anthrologist untroplgious of

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your own life. You can do that in your Apple

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notes and your Google keep, whatever notes you're taking on

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your phone, and anytime you notice something interesting as you

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go about your day, you take a notes. That could

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be after a conversation with someone where you're like, oh,

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I feel weirdly energized after talking for twenty minutes about

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this obscure topic with the colleague, or that could be

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things like, oh, I feel really drained after giving this presentation,

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or I was feeling anxious all morning before this meeting

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little observations like this, just do that for twenty four hours.

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Those are going to be the seeds for you to

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then decide what you want to try to tweak and

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play with and the experiment with.

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Yeah, that's great.

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I think it's it is interesting because oftentimes we want

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to add that value judgment right away is like am

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I either seeing a thing or I'm not seeing a

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thing right or that, Yeah, the presentation was hard, but

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I don't then say it. Let me observe and actually,

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how is I emotionally feeling? How is I physically feeling?

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How was I saying other people reacting in the scenario

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or did I feel energized? And like that is a

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Anne-Laure Le Cunff

Neuroscientist & Founder of Ness Labs

Anne-Laure Le Cunff is an award-winning neuroscientist, entrepreneur, and writer. She is the founder of Ness Labs, where her weekly newsletter about mindful productivity and systematic curiosity is read by more than 100,000 curious minds. Her research at King’s College London’s Institute of Psychiatry, Psychology & Neuroscience focuses on the neurodevelopment of curiosity, adaptability, and lifelong learning.

Her upcoming book, Tiny Experiments, is a transformative guide for living a more experimental life, turning uncertainty into curiosity, and carving a path of self-discovery. Drawing from ancestral philosophy and the latest scientific research, Le Cunff challenges the conventional linear approach to life and success. The book provides practical tools for conducting everyday experiments and dismantling unhelpful patterns, helping readers reawaken their curiosity and pursue their most authentic ambitions in an increasingly complex world.

Previously, Le Cunff worked at Google as an executive on digital health projects. Her work has been featured in Rolling Stone, Forbes, Financial Times, and WIRED. Based in London, she serves as an advisor for the Applied Neuroscience Association and the All Party Parliamentary Group for Entrepreneurship on themes of mental health at work. She continues in her writing and research to explore the intersection of neuroscience and personal development.

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