May 5, 2026

How Psychedelics Are Changing Mental Health & Spirituality

How Psychedelics Are Changing Mental Health & Spirituality
How Psychedelics Are Changing Mental Health & Spirituality
This Anthro Life
How Psychedelics Are Changing Mental Health & Spirituality
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What if true healing and self-discovery required breaking the boundaries between science and spirituality? In this episode of This Anthro Life, host Adam Gamwell sits down with Austin Mao, a serial entrepreneur turned spiritual leader, to explore the transformative power of psychedelics, trauma healing, and personal enlightenment. Austin shares his profound journey—from tech entrepreneurship to founding Ceremonia, a modern sanctuary that blends ancient shamanic practices with cutting-edge neuroscience. Through experiences with ayahuasca and psilocybin, he uncovers how psychedelics can unlock repressed memories, heal trauma, and help individuals reconnect with their authentic selves. This conversation dives deep into the intersection of therapy, plant medicine, and human potential, revealing how psychedelics are being used by CEOs, veterans, and seekers alike to reshape their minds and lives. If you’re ready to challenge what you know about healing and consciousness, this episode is for you.
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You know, the FDA is called psilocybin therapy as a

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breakthrough therapy, right and has fast tracked that through the FT.

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And that's because there are so many studies. This has

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been the most studied psychiatric medicine in the history of psychiatry,

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right in fifties and sixties, of one hundred thousand participants

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in over a thousand studies and recently studies by John Hopkins, Harvard,

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Imperial College of London. You name it, over many different psychedelics,

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over many different ailments, PTSD, depression, even physical ailments. It

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seems like it's a panacea of such a broad benefit

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to whatever it is. We get people who are some

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of the top performing CEOs in the world, right, Silicon

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value uniforms, Unicorn startups, vcs, et cetera. We also get

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combat veterans with complex PTSD. We get first responders, we

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get teachers, we get starving artists, and everybody comes for

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their own unique reason.

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So welcome to this anther life.

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I'm really excited to have on the program with me today,

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Austin Mao, so really really thrilled to talk with you.

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You're a serial entrepreneur, author, a poet, and a co

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founder of Ceremonial, which is a spiritual sanctuary out in

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the wonderful city of Denver, Colorado, which I love very much.

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And what you offer here is these really interesting transformative

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experiences that are pulling in a bunch of different kinds

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of holistic healing modalities and pathways, including with psychedelics like

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hyahuasca and psilocybin. What brings a lot of these together,

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I think is this connection between kind of science and

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spirituality when you talk about kind of pulling in ancient

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to shamanism and modern wisdom. So all that to say, Austin,

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excited to have you on the pod, and thanks.

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For joining me today.

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Thank you, Adam. Really happy to be here. Yeah, excited

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to chat with an anthropologist. I was just with a

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dear friend Eric and Beads, who like was number two

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to Tony Robbins and he's an anthropologist and just having

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this wealth of knowledge of how we came to be

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who we are today, the collective we It was so fascinating.

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Every time I opened up a topic with him, I hoped.

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It kind of hang in with that that level of cool.

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I think that you know that idea too, in terms

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of how do we think about both our own stories

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and the collective we and the and the individual eye

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is one of the really profound areas that spirituality helps

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us think about. And so as part of that, I'd

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love to kind of get your your own take, you know,

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sometimes to talk about this as your superhero origin story,

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but just you know, how do you find yourself moving

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from kind of tech entrepreneurship into this this kind of

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space that brings together science and spirituality and then ultimately

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to opening an up entheogenic church.

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Yeah, my story is one of happenstance and circumstance. In

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twenty twenty, I was invited to a retreat in Ayahuascar,

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retreat for founders, and at that time I already had

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a bunch of recreational psychedelic experiences, so I had a

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chip on my shoulder. I remember reading the prep documents

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and events and I'm sitting there in a restaurant in

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Mexico and it's like, take this seriously, right, Like do

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this diet, do this thing, don't drink caffeine, don't drink alcohol.

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And then I was like, this is stupid. I closed

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the laptop and I took a sip of my Margarita.

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And so going into the retreat, I was in this

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frame of mind of I'm here for a networking opportunity,

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and if you've ever sat in ceremony, let me tell

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you that is not a networking opportunity, right. So it

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was in the second ceremony that my life completely changed.

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Before that ceremony, I had very little recollection of my memory.

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In a morning workshop, the facilitator said, recollect a memory

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of you as a child that was really impactful for you.

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And there's something weird about my brain because what it

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went to is a memory of me in front of

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an electrical outlet as a little baby and then putting

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my penis inside of it and getting zapped, and and

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my and my mom was like, Okay, well he's never

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doing that again. But everything before and after was like

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a fog was blank, you know, and and and so

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I got curious about that, like even a couple months back,

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and my memory was was really foggy. So under the medicine,

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I started reliving my my memories in vivid detail. Like

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I could remember turning my locker combination in school, I

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could remember the books that I read. I could remember

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my first kiss and just like, you know, how you're

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in a dream and it's it's not like you're observing

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it on his screen and you're like living the thing. Yeah, right,

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And that's what was happening for me in my in

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my revisiting of my memory, going back and back in

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time until I was it was completely dark, I was

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under sheets, I was a child, and then I felt

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horny and I popped up and I was like, Okay,

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this is weird. There's no outlet around here. And then

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when I went back in, I realized I was sexually

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touched by someone, my mother's boyfriend at the time, and

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I was completely unaware. And it was such a huge aha,

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because at that moment it became clear to me why

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I repressed all of my memory. I threw the baby

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out with the bathwater, you know, And it was that

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one traumatic incident that led me to feel guilt and

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shame and confusion and pleasure and all these things a

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four year old would have known nothing to do with.

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And I started going forward in time and seeing how

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I was a bully as a kid, had sexual confusion

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as a teenager. I couldn't keep relationships because I just

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simply couldn't remember all the good times we created together,

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you know, all the way forward in time to this moment,

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to that moment where I was on a yoga matt

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in the jungle, surrounded by forty nine other founders going

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through their own process. There was some guy that was

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running around naked screaming, and I was like, Okay, that's weird.

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And I had these tears in my eyes and I

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told the shaman, the facilitator at the time, what happened.

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She's like, oh my god, I'm so sorry. And I said, no, no, no,

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you don't understand. I feel like I was secured of Alzheimer's,

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like this gaping hole, this black hole of memory that

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I didn't have. And then all of a sudden came

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flooding back, and that moment was the beginning of the

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rest of my life. I started writing again. It's now

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one of my great passions in life. I repaired my

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relationship with my bomb, I repaired my relationship with ex girlfriend,

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and a major ex girlfriend was now one of my

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closest friends. Like on and on and on, and just

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who I was before. It wasn't like a new chapter

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in my life. It was a It was a new

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sequel to me.

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Yeah, yeah, that's that's that's really powerful.

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I thank you for sharing that and being vulnerable and

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sharing that as well, because I think that's something that

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it strikes me because I've I've both sat for ayahuasca

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and psilocybin ceremonies as well, and you know, the first

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time I did ayahuasca too. I just moved to Peru

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for for Fieldberg actually for for PhD research.

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You know, I was gonna be there for a couple

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of years.

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And and I happened to accidentally move in with with

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a shaman. I mean, I rented a room from from

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his mother in terms out he lived there too, And

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it's also there's the aauska ceremonies.

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In my living room every two weeks.

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Uh, you know, it was this uh you know, funny

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how the universe works sometimes, you know. But there's this

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moment I remember too, because like I was feeling this

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this profound sense of loneliness because like I just I'm leaving,

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like I guess the sequel kind of like leaving this

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this other world my life that I've lived up to

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that moment and moving to a whole new space. And

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you know, that idea around the notions of memories and

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like who we are and things that we kind of

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either repressed or put off or like to protect ourselves.

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Is a really you know both on one of the hand,

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powerful mechanism that we have to help help ourselves heal

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and to move on. But then at the same time,

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when we could see plant medicines like this that offer

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us ways to kind of reconnect or retouch, rekind of

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revisit those pieces, and I recall something like that too,

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is that, you know, I was leaving my you know

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again this this again profound sense of like do I

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feel very disconnected from my past in this sense?

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You know?

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And then I remember at this like the like kind

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of you know, peak moments there. It was like I

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was a you know, sitting there in the bathroom by myself, crying,

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and then my family came to.

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Visit me as balloons.

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I don't know why they were balloons, but they you know,

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they floated by and they're just like my grandfather passed away,

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you know, came and said, hey, joint, you know that

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we're still I'm still here with you, and I was like,

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you know, bowling, but also just like this amazing sense

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of like unity right as part of the power of

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the medicine too, of like kids, like, it's okay to

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let go of those things and your loneliness in like

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the fear, because we're actually all here with you anyway.

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And so I'm wondering about this too in terms of

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the idea of your story too, of like the idea

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of unification or kind of you know, I'll think about

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integration slightly separately, But unification in terms of bringing our

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kind of whole selves back is is that something is

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that kind of how you feel the experience works are, like,

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that's one of the potential powers of these kinds of

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medicines is to kind of help bring about our the

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rest of ourselves back together again.

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Like how do you think about them?

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You know, first of all, I'm just gonna say, I'm

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gonna go deep with that, okay, And I I'm I

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have an assumption as story of your listeners that they

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are deep listeners too. So I think of there being

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three qualities to this concept we know as enlightenment, right.

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Those three qualities are wholeness, nothingness, and oneness slash allness.

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Wholeness being the complete reintegration of all the parts of

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ourselves that we've repressed, we've projected out, we've suppressed. Right,

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So all the all the grief, all the anger, the shame,

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all the guilt, all the voices inside of us, the

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parts that carry the burdens of I'm not good enough

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or you know, I don't matter, or I'm ugly or

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you know, those like really tender, inner child, wounded, inner

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child voices in internal family systems we call exiled parts.

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Bringing those back into the fold in this integration of self.

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I think of nothingness or emptiness as what Ramdas calls

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becoming nobody, right, And Ramdas says, you've got to become

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somebody in order to become nobody. And what that is

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is it's a releasing of our identity, because every time

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you interact with the outside world, you're holding an identity. Right,

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I get into and we're constantly shifting identities. It was

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just Father's Day yesterday, by the way, Happy Father's Day

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to you. And and you know you have an identity

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with your newborn and that's now as a caretaker as

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a father. Right, you get in the passenger's seat of

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a car, now you have an identity as a passenger.

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So on and so forth, Right, and The way that we

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interact with things is we interact through the lens of

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our identity. So if I'm holding money and I'm looking

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at the stack of cash in my hands, how I

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feel about that cash is through the prism of my

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identity to identify as a poor man or a rich man,

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a successful man, or a struggling man, et cetera, et cetera. Right,

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by relaxing our identities, we are able to embrace the

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world with greater openness. Right. And a very obvious one

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is let's say Christians versus Islam or something like that. Right,

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And it's like, okay, if I relax my identity of

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this religion or Republican Democrat. Let's say I relax my

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identity as a republican or democrat, then I'm able to

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embrace the ideas of the other with greater openness.

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Right.

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And the third level is oneness or allness, which is

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encoded into our church's belief It's the connection through the

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divinity of all things. What in Hindu culture they call

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it my Brahma, the God transcend the God imminent, which

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is the God or divinity within, the God transcendent, which

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is divinity without or in Christianity, the Holy spirits, and

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you know, yeah, the Holy spirit. Right. So these three

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qualities I think are worked on by different psychedelics. I

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believe that psilocybin and ayahuasca are really good at wholeness. Right.

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For example, the pathway to wholeness is hard. Yeah, you

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got to you get to confront parts of yourself that

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you're like, oh, I didn't know that even existed, and

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I certainly didn't want to see that thing, right. Ketamine

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Have you ever used ketamine before?

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I have?

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Yeah, Yeah, I think ketamine.

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That extensively, so I don't have a ton of experience

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with it.

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Well, it's a dissociative, it produces out of body experiences.

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It's federally legal as of twenty nineteen. And I believe

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ketamine works on the level of nothingness or emptiness, like

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we get out of ourselves and float in et there

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in the in the silence between things. And then I

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think that LSD works particularly well on the level of

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oneness or unitary consciousness, you know, like feeling this deep

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intimate connection with all living things and all existence.

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Yeah, that's beautiful and that was a deepest that was

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great and I love it. Thank you.

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For showing that because I think that is there there

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is something there that I mean, I say that resonates,

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that resonates.

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A lot in terms of breaking that down, And.

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It's kind of crazy to me just to think about

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this this fact too, that like that there are certain

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substances and LSD is obviously drived, you know, but like

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but it's you know, came from urgat, I think, right,

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And so that's interesting, like there's there are these these plants,

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does kind of meine have a natural or a plant version.

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I'm not sure if there is a purely chemical Actually

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it's again I'm not a chemist. I don't I believe

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it's purely chemical, but I'm also not a that's interesting

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to kind of to realize that meaningly, like right, that

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there are certain receptors and pieces of our neurochemistry in

264
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our brains that can work with these different subs, is right,

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that can then provide these these kind of levels of

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effects that we, on the one hand can't deny.

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I guess because part of it too.

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Think it's interesting because people you know, I've heard too

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that where it's like you know, meditation is is there's

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many pathways to enlighten, right, in many pathways up the mountain,

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as it were, right, meditation is one way that you

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can kind of like wend your way up psychedelics.

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Uh.

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The metaphor I like sometimes is that it catapults you

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over the maze right into the center for a second,

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for a little bit, then you actually back out again, uh,

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you know, and totally you know, like that's interesting that

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there's there's not only different modalities, but different speeds at

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which at which people would go and and I think velocities,

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you know, is part of that as well. And I

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think there's there's something like really important about uh, the

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kind of resurgence I guess of psychedelics into mental health

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and into approaching questions and things like enlightenment today that

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we you know, have seen of course all of these

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we know, psilocybin you know, and has has a long

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history of practice in uh Central South America, ayahuasca in Peru,

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you know, in another places like eboge in Africa, right,

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you know, an LC and kedemine that came through us

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through some of the magic of chemistry today. And there's

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really interesting kind of pieces that there's a long history there,

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but like they're all kind of coming together now, I

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think in these interesting ways, you know, And so I

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think the ceremony and the work that you're doing there

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too is is kind of one pathway in one literal

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place right where we can help see the different modalities

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come together. And so I'm kind of curious to think

297
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about that. You know, you have different pathways that you

298
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work with, folks, So I mean, hey, I want to

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talk about what what what you do with ceremonial and

300
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then we kind of talk to some of the different

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transformative pathways that you that you work on there, because

302
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I'm kind of curious how you integrate different healing modalities,

303
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medicines and other kind of practices as part of that.

304
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So let's start a little bit like what is what what?

305
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What is ceremonial to you? And how does it? How

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does it work?

307
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So we recently launched a podcast called Modern Enlightenment, and

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this idea of it, it's really under the idea that

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a hundred years ago, if you wanted to reach enlightenment,

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which is you know, often related to as a as

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an ex infinite feeling of peace and joy and love

312
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and gratitude. Right. Who doesn't want to feel that? Right?

313
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But in order to do that, you'd have to be

314
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a horny monk on the mountaintop, right, Yeah, and really bold,

315
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right for decades, and then with the discovery or sort

316
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of the modern discovery of psychedelics versus in the fifties

317
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and sixties, and then now in the resurgence in what

318
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we often relate to as the psychedelic renaissance. Now like

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there are more accelerated options, right. But what's what's really

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interesting is that we're in what's called the third wave

321
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of psychology. The first wave was pavlov I ring a bell,

322
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dog salivates, Oh, humans are the same way, right, Come

323
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here for dinner, you guys. The second is cognitive behavioral therapy,

324
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this idea that our thoughts can influence our feelings, right.

325
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And the third wave is this more integrated model, which

326
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is around mindfulness and and the concept of wholeness, right,

327
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internal family systems, constual therapy, somatic experiencing, so on and

328
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so forth. Right, And what's fascinating is that the third

329
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wave of psychology is starting to converge with the thousands

330
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of years of ancient wisdom. In fact, we're located between

331
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Denver and Boulder in Colorado and just up the street

332
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and boulders in Naropa University, which is a Buddhist university

333
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that's really mainstream now and has lots of courses in

334
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Buddhist psychology. It's something very integrated into our program. And

335
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what's so exciting about this is that these like thousands

336
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of years of wisdom from various different religions and various

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different spiritual practices Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, so on and

338
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so forth are now starting to like make sense in

339
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a way with modern science. Yeah, aka psychotherapy. Right. And

340
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there's this great book called The Way of the Psychoonot

341
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by Stanis Lofgrowth, and he writes in this in the

342
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in the preface, he's like, science is always catching up

343
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to mysticism. Right when before Newton observed the apple falling

344
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from the tree and was like, oh, that's gravity. Before that,

345
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everyone thought it was something mystical that was happening. Yeah,

346
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you know what I'm saying. Before Galileo realized that the

347
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Earth is revolving around the Sun, everyone thought that it

348
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was the Sun and the planets revolving around us. Right,

349
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And so we're in this really exciting time where the

350
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old and the new are converging, and I believe it's

351
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incumbent upon practitioners to integrate that because if you don't

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have the ancient wisdom, let's say, ketamine clinics are a

353
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lot of that, right, if you don't have the modern techniques,

354
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there's a disservice that's happening to yourself, to myself as

355
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a facilitator, and to the participants because there's so much

356
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wisdom and there's so much technology that is available throughout.

357
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Yeah, I think that's that's a really important point in that,

358
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like we have a wealth, you know, in like our

359
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toolbox is huge, right, and kind of thinking about that,

360
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right that there's there's many ways to kind of work

361
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in that.

362
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I think I love that point too, that we're kind

363
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of thinking about that.

364
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Science is sort of always kind of catching up, and

365
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I guess as a tool of discovery that makes sense, right,

366
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it's always kind of say, okay, what is you know?

367
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And how can we talk about that and how can

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we make sense of it and see what evidence is

369
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behind it is working?

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And it is interesting too that like at the same time,

371
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like those.

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That kind of you know, modern tool kuld of using

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using science to talk about what neuropathways work, you know,

374
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and how this like how we can have psycho psychedelics,

375
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psycho psycho psychosystems, psychedelic therapy, and so hard to say

376
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all these things together, right, but having psychedelics along with

377
00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:50.039
psychotherapy together and having kind of assisted technologies you know,

378
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with therapists and and and practitioners, you know, tells us

379
00:19:53.960 --> 00:19:55.960
a really interesting piece that's showing us how they all

380
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kind of work together too, and that they can work right.

381
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So there's an interesting piece it also seems around validating

382
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right that that these there's a reason that some of

383
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these practices have been around for thousands of years, but

384
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then there's also important new information coming about how and

385
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why they work. And this is something that that you know,

386
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as a sort of side story or side note, that

387
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I found really powerful.

388
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Like when I was when I.

389
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Was working in in Peru, I was working with indigenous

390
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Quinewa farmers, you know, Indian farmers in the southern southern

391
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region around Puno, and you know, a lot of the

392
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work that I was doing was just how do we

393
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put on the same par indigenous knowledge that's built over

394
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thousands of years in community around ag cultural practices and

395
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why this crop goes well with that crop, and why

396
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plant here versus there, and like seasonal changes and things

397
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like that, Why that's on the same set of knowledge

398
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at least we need to put on the same level

399
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as kind of new agriculture agricultural like agro scientific knowledge, right,

400
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and that it's not somehow old knowledge versus new, but

401
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that they can actually help explain each other, and that

402
00:20:50.839 --> 00:20:53.319
in one can validate the other one also, and that

403
00:20:53.400 --> 00:20:55.119
I mean, it was an interesting point of like how

404
00:20:55.119 --> 00:20:56.839
do we because it's a question of power, right, and

405
00:20:56.839 --> 00:20:58.680
it's like, Okay, we have new knowledge that's scientific, so

406
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therefore we're going to throw out the old indigenous wisdom

407
00:21:01.000 --> 00:21:03.200
or knowledge because it's not it's old, right, It didn't

408
00:21:03.240 --> 00:21:05.079
it didn't tell us how to explain the world today.

409
00:21:05.079 --> 00:21:07.960
But it's it's funny that in so much indigenous practice

410
00:21:07.960 --> 00:21:09.880
we find it actually does tell us how to explain

411
00:21:10.160 --> 00:21:12.839
the world today. We've just forgotten how to listen to it, right,

412
00:21:12.880 --> 00:21:15.200
We've like we've kind of tuned into it slightly differently.

413
00:21:15.920 --> 00:21:17.400
Uh, and it gott in the sense that we like

414
00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:18.240
somehow know better.

415
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But then we have to say, there's a reason that

416
00:21:20.480 --> 00:21:24.039
it's stuck around you know, and so I'm kind of

417
00:21:24.039 --> 00:21:29.119
curious in your thoughts too about like when kind of

418
00:21:29.160 --> 00:21:32.680
helping people open up to these the possibilities of you know,

419
00:21:33.319 --> 00:21:35.519
when we can seek a form of enlightenment. I guess

420
00:21:36.119 --> 00:21:38.119
are folks kind of coming when you're thinking about running

421
00:21:38.119 --> 00:21:42.160
ceremonies or sessions. I'm curious do folks kind of pop

422
00:21:42.160 --> 00:21:44.200
in say I'm looking for enlightenment or they're saying I'm

423
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working through a problem, or I'm trying to figure out

424
00:21:45.880 --> 00:21:47.640
like where I'm at, you know, because I know you

425
00:21:47.680 --> 00:21:49.440
kind of have you have awaken and transcend the different

426
00:21:49.480 --> 00:21:51.200
kind of pathways that folks can go through. So how

427
00:21:51.240 --> 00:21:54.799
do folks like find their way to what you what

428
00:21:54.839 --> 00:21:56.000
you help them do?

429
00:21:56.200 --> 00:21:57.440
I guess, you know, how do people show up on

430
00:21:57.480 --> 00:21:57.759
the door?

431
00:21:57.799 --> 00:22:00.599
It's it's a mixed bag. And it's really interesting because

432
00:22:01.519 --> 00:22:04.279
you know, the FDA is called psilocybin therapy as a

433
00:22:04.319 --> 00:22:07.640
breakthrough therapy, right and has fast tracked that through the

434
00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:11.640
fd And that's because there are so many studies. This

435
00:22:11.720 --> 00:22:14.319
has been the most studied psychiatric medicine in the history

436
00:22:14.319 --> 00:22:16.319
of psychiatry. Right in the fifties and sixties, over one

437
00:22:16.359 --> 00:22:19.599
hundred thousand participants in over a thousand studies and recently

438
00:22:19.640 --> 00:22:23.880
studies by John Hopkins, Harvard, Imperial College of London. You

439
00:22:24.000 --> 00:22:28.400
name it, right, and it's so fascinating that over many

440
00:22:28.440 --> 00:22:36.079
different psychedelics, over many different ailments PTSD, depression, even physical ailments,

441
00:22:36.680 --> 00:22:42.160
it seems like it's a panacea of of such a

442
00:22:42.240 --> 00:22:48.559
broad benefit to whatever it is. Right. So similarly, we

443
00:22:48.680 --> 00:22:52.599
get people who are some of the top performing CEOs

444
00:22:52.880 --> 00:22:56.440
in the world. Right, we've facilitated a great deal of

445
00:22:56.759 --> 00:23:02.680
founders Fortune five hundred executives, Silicon Valley, uniforms, Unicorn startups, vcs,

446
00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:07.960
et cetera. We also get combat veterans with complex PTSD UH,

447
00:23:08.079 --> 00:23:11.279
we get first responders, we get teachers, we get starving artists,

448
00:23:11.960 --> 00:23:15.759
and everybody comes for their own unique reason. Right, it

449
00:23:15.799 --> 00:23:19.480
could be like I we had we had someone who

450
00:23:19.519 --> 00:23:22.079
came who was about to start chemo treatment the month

451
00:23:22.119 --> 00:23:26.880
after our retreat and was you know, had end what

452
00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:29.240
what we call in psychology end of life anxiety. I mean,

453
00:23:29.359 --> 00:23:32.440
such an extraordinary amount of anxiety you can imagine, right,

454
00:23:33.119 --> 00:23:38.200
And and she came and in the process was able

455
00:23:38.240 --> 00:23:43.839
to have a conversation with her cancer and actually feel

456
00:23:43.960 --> 00:23:48.559
unconditional love in herself and pour that into her cancer,

457
00:23:48.680 --> 00:23:51.440
just sitting with that, giving it unconditional love like a

458
00:23:51.480 --> 00:23:55.319
warm embrace of a mother for hours. And I just

459
00:23:55.359 --> 00:23:59.240
spoke with her the other day and we're on FaceTime

460
00:23:59.279 --> 00:24:02.000
and she's going through treatment. You know, her head's bald,

461
00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:05.119
et cetera. And she shared like she doesn't believe that

462
00:24:05.160 --> 00:24:10.200
she would have survived this without that experience. Meanwhile, at

463
00:24:10.240 --> 00:24:13.920
the same time, we had one of the top female

464
00:24:13.920 --> 00:24:17.160
founders in the world come. This woman is on boards

465
00:24:17.200 --> 00:24:21.960
and you know, very sought out right, can't name names,

466
00:24:22.559 --> 00:24:27.440
and she comes and she she almost didn't show up

467
00:24:27.640 --> 00:24:30.799
because she gives me a call two weeks in advance

468
00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:32.920
and says, hey, I can't make it. Have a double booking.

469
00:24:33.759 --> 00:24:36.599
I'm invited to a private dinner with Prince Harry and

470
00:24:36.640 --> 00:24:40.880
Megan Merkle and I'm It's like, okay, well, let's break

471
00:24:40.880 --> 00:24:44.400
this down. You know what's happening for you, Like how

472
00:24:44.400 --> 00:24:48.920
often do you delay your personal needs for some business opportunity?

473
00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:51.920
And she's like, okay, I'm coming, And in the process

474
00:24:52.680 --> 00:24:58.039
was also experienced a level of unconditional love, self generated

475
00:24:58.480 --> 00:25:00.720
in a way that she had never experience before. It and

476
00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:04.039
has since gone on to found other companies with this

477
00:25:04.119 --> 00:25:10.000
intention of spreading that love. And and so everyone comes

478
00:25:10.039 --> 00:25:13.119
in the top of the funnel with their own unique

479
00:25:13.359 --> 00:25:15.400
what they want to work on. Do they want greater

480
00:25:15.480 --> 00:25:17.680
performance in their workplace or do they want to heal

481
00:25:17.799 --> 00:25:21.960
from some traumatic incident. But everybody finds the same thing.

482
00:25:22.440 --> 00:25:25.640
That's the that's the crazy thing, and as WU and

483
00:25:25.920 --> 00:25:27.880
there's the WU side of me that I can say

484
00:25:27.960 --> 00:25:31.599
it's just love, right, But really the answer is they

485
00:25:31.640 --> 00:25:36.240
find themselves. The healing agent is not the medicine or

486
00:25:36.279 --> 00:25:41.480
a teacher or a facilitator even a practice. The medicine

487
00:25:42.359 --> 00:25:46.000
is to find that you are the medicine, right mm

488
00:25:46.039 --> 00:25:51.680
hmmm m And it's it's a very interesting game because

489
00:25:51.680 --> 00:25:56.640
we're in the business of of facilitating you to not

490
00:25:56.720 --> 00:25:57.519
need us anymore.

491
00:25:58.440 --> 00:25:58.839
Mm hmm.

492
00:26:00.200 --> 00:26:03.519
Successful if you don't ever need anything like this anymore.

493
00:26:03.559 --> 00:26:05.039
Does that make sense? It does?

494
00:26:05.160 --> 00:26:06.599
Yeah, it's funny. I mean I was.

495
00:26:06.839 --> 00:26:10.200
I was thinking about this the other day too, in

496
00:26:10.200 --> 00:26:13.400
the sense that I think that the best businesses that

497
00:26:13.440 --> 00:26:15.200
should be their model, right, that we shouldn't exist.

498
00:26:15.200 --> 00:26:16.839
We don't need like art is to solve the problems.

499
00:26:16.880 --> 00:26:18.799
We don't need to exist right, It's an interesting idea

500
00:26:18.839 --> 00:26:21.599
of like, rather than perpetuating your need for my soda,

501
00:26:21.759 --> 00:26:23.440
like I want you to not need the soda, right,

502
00:26:24.559 --> 00:26:26.079
or to get your thirst quench or whatever it is.

503
00:26:26.119 --> 00:26:29.039
You know, totally. But by the way, do you know

504
00:26:29.680 --> 00:26:31.720
do you know that coke has so much sodium in

505
00:26:31.759 --> 00:26:34.079
it and you know, and so much sugar in it

506
00:26:34.119 --> 00:26:36.039
because it has so much sodium in it and there's

507
00:26:36.079 --> 00:26:38.599
so much sodium in it originally so that it can

508
00:26:38.640 --> 00:26:41.400
make you thirsty, so you could want more coke, damn it.

509
00:26:41.599 --> 00:26:43.559
See that makes perfmal sense though, right, yeah, I mean,

510
00:26:44.720 --> 00:26:46.279
and then but I think I mean that perhaps is

511
00:26:46.480 --> 00:26:49.680
also the perhaps a great metaphor for contemporary society too, right,

512
00:26:49.720 --> 00:26:53.279
that we build the addiction in to need more of something,

513
00:26:53.400 --> 00:26:55.519
right versus versus like let me arrive to me and

514
00:26:55.559 --> 00:26:57.440
then let the rest of it, Let the rest of

515
00:26:57.480 --> 00:26:59.799
it be, you know, totally.

516
00:26:59.519 --> 00:27:04.039
Sly something and this field is not is not free

517
00:27:04.039 --> 00:27:07.119
from that. There you know something that is unique about

518
00:27:07.279 --> 00:27:10.640
what we've do. So tomorrow we're about to start our

519
00:27:10.680 --> 00:27:14.000
twenty ninth retreats in two years, okay, And like any

520
00:27:14.039 --> 00:27:19.279
good founder, we've iterated every single retreat and what we've

521
00:27:19.359 --> 00:27:22.880
kind of honed in on that works. Is something that

522
00:27:22.880 --> 00:27:25.559
I think of as content versus process. Right, if you

523
00:27:25.559 --> 00:27:27.519
go to a therapist, you go to shaman, you go

524
00:27:27.839 --> 00:27:31.119
you know, and and they're holding space for you. You know.

525
00:27:31.160 --> 00:27:34.440
Think think of the image of a person sitting on

526
00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:36.720
a therapist couch, right, and you're sharing your content. You're

527
00:27:36.720 --> 00:27:39.440
sharing your stories, your beliefs, your your emotions, and that

528
00:27:39.480 --> 00:27:43.319
person is taking notes and asking you questions and helping

529
00:27:43.319 --> 00:27:46.680
you with the release of your content. Valuable experience. Don't

530
00:27:46.680 --> 00:27:49.240
get me wrong. Therapy is everyone should do therapy, okay,

531
00:27:50.519 --> 00:27:55.599
But what is long term valuable is if you had

532
00:27:55.599 --> 00:27:58.559
a process. Imagine if you went to a psychology school

533
00:27:58.920 --> 00:28:02.400
and learned how to facilate yourself such that in the future,

534
00:28:02.440 --> 00:28:06.240
when life's unknowns throw you a curveball and you are

535
00:28:07.240 --> 00:28:09.680
in the suck, right, You're you're in the fight flight

536
00:28:09.759 --> 00:28:12.119
or freeze, you know what to do with it instead

537
00:28:12.119 --> 00:28:18.440
of fight flight or freezing. Right. That process is the

538
00:28:18.559 --> 00:28:23.720
number one thing to learn to practice ahead of a

539
00:28:23.759 --> 00:28:28.799
psychedelic experience, because the psychedelic experience is inherently unpredictable. I

540
00:28:28.799 --> 00:28:30.240
don't know about you, but you know I've said in

541
00:28:30.359 --> 00:28:33.960
hundreds of ceremonies now every single time I feel some

542
00:28:34.039 --> 00:28:38.119
level of anxiety or fear, I know on the other

543
00:28:38.160 --> 00:28:40.799
side is joy and love and peace. But going into it,

544
00:28:40.839 --> 00:28:43.680
I'm like, Okay, what the heck's gonna come up right now?

545
00:28:43.799 --> 00:28:46.160
You know what I'm saying. Yeah, And so if if

546
00:28:46.200 --> 00:28:50.359
you had the process of knowing what to do with yourself,

547
00:28:50.799 --> 00:28:55.480
no matter the challenge in life, right, then your capacity

548
00:28:55.880 --> 00:29:00.279
to meet yourself, to meet a psychedelic experience is is

549
00:29:00.359 --> 00:29:03.680
so much deeper. So you can go deeper with less medicine,

550
00:29:03.839 --> 00:29:05.920
or you can hold more medicine without getting into a

551
00:29:05.920 --> 00:29:07.480
bad trip. Does that make sense?

552
00:29:07.960 --> 00:29:10.359
Yeah, Yeah, I think it's I think it's a great point,

553
00:29:11.599 --> 00:29:13.400
you know, because it's like it reminds me that that

554
00:29:13.960 --> 00:29:16.599
the the entry point for a lot of folks, I

555
00:29:16.640 --> 00:29:18.720
think are more mainstream artists. I guess I would say

556
00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:21.480
into into thinking about psychedelic strict was Michael Pollins How

557
00:29:21.480 --> 00:29:24.000
to Change Your Mind, And and I think one of

558
00:29:24.039 --> 00:29:25.599
the pieces I was glad that he brought up in

559
00:29:25.599 --> 00:29:27.200
that book too, is just the importance of set and

560
00:29:27.200 --> 00:29:30.799
setting it also, right, it's like understanding that one these

561
00:29:30.839 --> 00:29:33.480
are going to be inherently unpredictable experiences. And then on

562
00:29:33.519 --> 00:29:36.640
top of that or with that that you know, being

563
00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:38.720
with the right place that you feel safe, you know

564
00:29:38.759 --> 00:29:42.200
that you feel secure enough to be vulnerable, right, is

565
00:29:42.200 --> 00:29:44.279
I think really what that is? And then and then

566
00:29:44.279 --> 00:29:46.359
being amongst the right the right people, right whether it's

567
00:29:46.359 --> 00:29:49.480
you know, uh, therapists or loved ones or they're a

568
00:29:49.519 --> 00:29:52.720
safe community as part of that. And I love this

569
00:29:52.759 --> 00:29:55.119
idea too of like I'm just putting that in my

570
00:29:55.119 --> 00:29:57.279
head together with the idea of content versus process, right,

571
00:29:57.319 --> 00:29:59.920
and like being able to extract or work with the

572
00:30:00.079 --> 00:30:03.559
process of that that understanding how you go through something,

573
00:30:04.839 --> 00:30:05.640
especially something.

574
00:30:05.440 --> 00:30:06.519
That is inherently unpredictable.

575
00:30:06.559 --> 00:30:08.400
Then it's less about what is it that I'm going

576
00:30:08.440 --> 00:30:09.720
to experience, but more of how am I going to

577
00:30:09.720 --> 00:30:10.480
go through that process?

578
00:30:11.759 --> 00:30:13.559
And it's it's something that you.

579
00:30:13.519 --> 00:30:15.799
Know that some yoga teachers have shared with me that

580
00:30:15.839 --> 00:30:18.160
I was I found really valuable over the past year

581
00:30:19.880 --> 00:30:21.640
in in a in a different kind of practice, but

582
00:30:21.680 --> 00:30:23.960
just getting the sense that like simple but a truth

583
00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:26.519
for that, like we can't we can't choose what happens

584
00:30:26.559 --> 00:30:26.839
to us.

585
00:30:26.799 --> 00:30:28.400
But we can choose what we how we react, Right,

586
00:30:28.440 --> 00:30:29.480
we can choose we can choose what.

587
00:30:29.480 --> 00:30:32.559
We do with what happens to us, and the more

588
00:30:32.599 --> 00:30:34.240
we can kind of get a handle on that process

589
00:30:34.279 --> 00:30:36.599
to then be able to just I feel an emotion,

590
00:30:36.759 --> 00:30:38.920
I accept it as it is, and I'm watching it,

591
00:30:38.960 --> 00:30:40.160
and then I can choose what to do with that,

592
00:30:40.200 --> 00:30:42.359
and may I then choose in a way that helps me,

593
00:30:42.720 --> 00:30:44.440
you know, fulfill my heart's purpose or kind of act

594
00:30:44.480 --> 00:30:46.240
out of love in some way. Right, it sounds a bit,

595
00:30:46.640 --> 00:30:48.279
but at the same time, you know, it's it's understanding

596
00:30:48.279 --> 00:30:51.000
a bit about once on process and that in that piece,

597
00:30:51.039 --> 00:30:52.960
and so it's like being able to kind of put

598
00:30:52.960 --> 00:30:55.160
some of those elements together with these these other questions

599
00:30:55.160 --> 00:30:58.880
of like if you're going into an unpredictable space or

600
00:30:58.920 --> 00:31:03.079
adventure or roller coaster, being willing and able to kind

601
00:31:03.119 --> 00:31:04.759
of be okay with that processing.

602
00:31:04.799 --> 00:31:06.319
I think that's that's a really powerful point.

603
00:31:07.720 --> 00:31:09.039
And a lot of this, too, I think, is helping

604
00:31:09.279 --> 00:31:12.240
folks get a sense of that, like to understand that's

605
00:31:12.279 --> 00:31:14.039
that is a bit of what this process is, especially

606
00:31:14.119 --> 00:31:14.920
the psychedelic part of it.

607
00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:15.119
Right.

608
00:31:15.119 --> 00:31:16.720
You know, we may do other hiteing motalities that are

609
00:31:16.759 --> 00:31:20.200
not quite as psychoactive, but you know how they can

610
00:31:20.279 --> 00:31:22.319
kind of work together. I think it's something that that's

611
00:31:22.359 --> 00:31:25.200
really powerful. So I love I love that idea. The

612
00:31:25.240 --> 00:31:26.680
thing something I wanted to ask you about with that too,

613
00:31:26.759 --> 00:31:29.400
is that you know, I was going through your blog

614
00:31:29.440 --> 00:31:31.279
and looking at some other other other stuff that you've written.

615
00:31:31.319 --> 00:31:34.160
So you know, I'm glad that you're writing and and

616
00:31:34.240 --> 00:31:35.079
that you noted that in.

617
00:31:36.599 --> 00:31:39.559
Twenty twenty three years your your burning Man and ending message,

618
00:31:39.559 --> 00:31:41.319
and I was that I was at burning Man last

619
00:31:41.359 --> 00:31:44.000
year also, and the great burning Man flood right of

620
00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:46.000
twenty twenty three has a very strange experience, you know,

621
00:31:47.400 --> 00:31:49.559
but I appreciated you know that what you had written

622
00:31:49.599 --> 00:31:52.640
about there too is like thinking about you know, you

623
00:31:52.640 --> 00:31:53.240
said you kind.

624
00:31:53.160 --> 00:31:54.960
Of committed doing a sober burn for.

625
00:31:55.240 --> 00:31:58.519
Twenty twenty three, and so I want to think a

626
00:31:58.519 --> 00:32:00.359
little bit about that too, because like other things that

627
00:32:00.359 --> 00:32:01.640
you wrote, you said you wanted to kind of be

628
00:32:01.640 --> 00:32:03.319
more in tune in on our signals of your body

629
00:32:03.440 --> 00:32:05.119
that it was showing you and like if you're tired

630
00:32:05.160 --> 00:32:06.920
of take a rest. You know, this is interest, It

631
00:32:06.960 --> 00:32:09.079
is funny, I guess for me particularly this is interesting

632
00:32:09.079 --> 00:32:11.400
because this is exactly how I went into twenty twenty three. Also,

633
00:32:11.480 --> 00:32:12.920
and you know, I know we didn't know each other then,

634
00:32:13.200 --> 00:32:14.759
but like that was also my like I'm gonna go

635
00:32:14.759 --> 00:32:16.599
to Bernie Man this year, and like I don't need

636
00:32:16.599 --> 00:32:18.839
to take psychedelics if they called me, sure, but like

637
00:32:18.880 --> 00:32:20.720
they didn't and I didn't expect them to, and and

638
00:32:20.759 --> 00:32:22.319
that was okay. You know, I did a bunch of

639
00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:25.759
other I had some other great experiences, and I think

640
00:32:25.759 --> 00:32:27.200
in part because of that, you know, but there was

641
00:32:27.240 --> 00:32:30.000
this interesting piece. I'm curious, like how you even thought

642
00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:31.480
about this too, right, because I know we're I guess

643
00:32:31.480 --> 00:32:33.200
I'm asking because we're talking a lot about sadelics. But

644
00:32:33.240 --> 00:32:36.079
then also like we don't always have to do that, right,

645
00:32:36.119 --> 00:32:37.920
There can be other ways of kind of, as you.

646
00:32:37.920 --> 00:32:40.319
Said, kind of getting to the getting to the quest

647
00:32:40.359 --> 00:32:40.759
of enlightenment.

648
00:32:40.799 --> 00:32:42.799
So I guess coming to your like your enlightenment a

649
00:32:42.799 --> 00:32:46.000
piece too, I guess of you know, what was that?

650
00:32:46.079 --> 00:32:47.559
What was that like for you to kind of say, Okay,

651
00:32:47.559 --> 00:32:50.720
I'm gonna go into a typically like psychedelic space, I

652
00:32:50.759 --> 00:32:52.640
mean Burning Man psychedelic if you're not in drugs anyway,

653
00:32:52.680 --> 00:32:56.160
But you know what that what that process was like

654
00:32:56.160 --> 00:32:57.559
for you, and how you how you kind of think

655
00:32:57.559 --> 00:33:00.480
about how to listen to yourself. I guess thinking about

656
00:33:00.519 --> 00:33:02.599
this process question too, right, like learning how to listen

657
00:33:02.599 --> 00:33:04.079
to ourself, I feel like as part of that process.

658
00:33:04.119 --> 00:33:06.039
But is that how that that tracks for you in

659
00:33:06.119 --> 00:33:08.079
terms of your experiences?

660
00:33:08.440 --> 00:33:12.160
Last year was my twelfth burning Man in a row. Right,

661
00:33:12.279 --> 00:33:14.519
I got it, that's engaged at burning Man. I got

662
00:33:14.559 --> 00:33:18.240
married at burning Man. I had my first LSD experience

663
00:33:18.279 --> 00:33:23.480
at burning Man, So you know, it was committing to

664
00:33:23.559 --> 00:33:26.480
going into a sober burn was something very new for me.

665
00:33:27.119 --> 00:33:30.400
The year prior was when burning Men reopened to the

666
00:33:30.400 --> 00:33:34.279
masses right after the Renegade, et cetera. And I remember

667
00:33:34.359 --> 00:33:38.759
floating around burning Men disembodied. What I mean by that

668
00:33:38.839 --> 00:33:41.799
is I was chasing, right, I was chasing after experience,

669
00:33:41.880 --> 00:33:44.559
chasing this art car, this party, this event, so on

670
00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:47.640
and so forth, and I wasn't being present. And even

671
00:33:47.680 --> 00:33:49.359
though that was a really tough burning Man from an

672
00:33:49.440 --> 00:33:51.400
environmental standpoint, I don't know if you were there, it

673
00:33:51.480 --> 00:33:53.400
was really warm, there was a lot of yeah, the

674
00:33:53.480 --> 00:33:58.400
roads were terrible, et cetera. What I ultimately remember is

675
00:33:58.480 --> 00:34:03.079
not remembering experience, and that's because I was not present.

676
00:34:03.759 --> 00:34:08.400
And so going into last year's Burning Men first, just

677
00:34:08.440 --> 00:34:11.519
a caveat like I did a boga two days before

678
00:34:11.559 --> 00:34:14.960
burning men started, So that was part of it. That's

679
00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:17.719
a that's a powerful West African plant medicine. That's a

680
00:34:17.760 --> 00:34:22.400
thirty six hour ceremony. That's a whole nother conversation. But

681
00:34:24.719 --> 00:34:27.519
what I have been moving my life towards as a

682
00:34:27.519 --> 00:34:31.719
whole is greater intentionality. Right. I often get asked by

683
00:34:32.480 --> 00:34:36.119
you know, alumni that come through our program, like do

684
00:34:36.159 --> 00:34:39.280
you drink anymore? Like what do you? What is it

685
00:34:39.280 --> 00:34:42.239
okay for me to have a glass of wine? And

686
00:34:42.519 --> 00:34:45.239
I share a story of how when I first started

687
00:34:45.280 --> 00:34:48.320
to do this work, I was like, I'm going super healthy,

688
00:34:48.320 --> 00:34:52.159
I'm swearing off everything. I went vegetarian, et cetera. And

689
00:34:52.199 --> 00:34:56.159
then I recognized the instances where when I would have

690
00:34:56.199 --> 00:34:59.559
a craving, I would immediately feel guilt and then there

691
00:34:59.559 --> 00:35:01.639
would be a crown of shame. Right, oh, I'm not

692
00:35:01.679 --> 00:35:04.039
doing this good enough, or I shouldn't even be craving

693
00:35:04.079 --> 00:35:08.840
this thing, et cetera. And and then I I remember

694
00:35:08.960 --> 00:35:13.280
Ramdas talking about this Ramdass spiritual teacher, and he shared

695
00:35:15.199 --> 00:35:20.079
that for people that are quitting smoking, right, something to

696
00:35:20.159 --> 00:35:23.880
I'm paraphrasing, He's like, you're not If you don't die

697
00:35:24.199 --> 00:35:29.639
from the cigarette, you're gonna die from a tightness, you know. Yeah,

698
00:35:29.679 --> 00:35:32.079
And so what I what I decided is I I'm

699
00:35:32.199 --> 00:35:34.239
I'm just going to bring intentionality. So I have a

700
00:35:34.239 --> 00:35:37.639
glass of wine every now and then, but I always

701
00:35:37.679 --> 00:35:41.039
but as I pay attention, as I bring into awareness,

702
00:35:41.320 --> 00:35:43.480
what happens when I want the second glass of wine

703
00:35:44.039 --> 00:35:47.719
or the third it's usually because I'm trying to escape something,

704
00:35:48.480 --> 00:35:51.599
escape feeling something. You could call it relax I can

705
00:35:51.639 --> 00:35:54.880
call it relaxing right after a heart after a long

706
00:35:54.960 --> 00:35:58.840
day's work. But the reality is I'm could be meditating,

707
00:35:59.719 --> 00:36:01.960
I could be reading a book, I could be present

708
00:36:02.039 --> 00:36:05.679
with my experience. Instead I am wanting to not be

709
00:36:05.760 --> 00:36:10.400
here right and and so going into Burning Men, I

710
00:36:10.440 --> 00:36:12.559
was like, Okay, my intention is to really be here.

711
00:36:13.559 --> 00:36:16.679
And the rain that happened actually really facilitated that. When

712
00:36:16.719 --> 00:36:19.920
it started rating, I was like, this is really nice

713
00:36:20.559 --> 00:36:22.960
because all I did is my wife and I were

714
00:36:23.119 --> 00:36:27.400
in our airstream and we just camped and we enjoyed

715
00:36:27.400 --> 00:36:30.039
the company of each other and our friends next door,

716
00:36:30.199 --> 00:36:33.280
and it slowed everything down. I was like, oh, this

717
00:36:33.360 --> 00:36:36.239
is what burning men can be when we slow our

718
00:36:36.280 --> 00:36:39.800
lives down, right. Yeah, And there's a lesson in that.

719
00:36:39.719 --> 00:36:46.159
Too totally that that was beautiful. I yeah, I I

720
00:36:46.199 --> 00:36:46.760
feel the same.

721
00:36:46.800 --> 00:36:48.800
It is that like there was there's something that's just

722
00:36:48.800 --> 00:36:51.360
really important, you know about it was it was my

723
00:36:51.400 --> 00:36:53.920
wife's first burn was twenty twenty three and so like,

724
00:36:53.960 --> 00:36:55.599
and that was what a burn to start with, because

725
00:36:55.639 --> 00:36:59.039
it's like two burning mans in one, right, But it's

726
00:36:59.079 --> 00:37:02.000
like that that it was. I think it's powerful for

727
00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:03.440
a number of reasons. But I think that was that's

728
00:37:03.480 --> 00:37:06.000
exactly right too, where it's like everything had to shut

729
00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:07.599
down and actually like for us to have found that

730
00:37:07.599 --> 00:37:08.679
because we were we were in a camp of one

731
00:37:08.760 --> 00:37:10.760
hundred and fifty people and that that's a lot of people.

732
00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:13.639
You know, it's like you won't even see everybody in

733
00:37:13.679 --> 00:37:15.760
your camp. But then when when the rains came, like

734
00:37:15.800 --> 00:37:17.920
and we literally couldn't go anywhere, you know, we had

735
00:37:17.960 --> 00:37:19.920
we hadn't yet invented our our trash bag shoes.

736
00:37:19.960 --> 00:37:21.320
You know, that came came the next day.

737
00:37:22.239 --> 00:37:24.719
You know, there was something about being all together right,

738
00:37:24.880 --> 00:37:26.960
and that it was also we don't know what's gonna happen,

739
00:37:27.239 --> 00:37:29.840
and then you know, so it's an element unpredictability because

740
00:37:29.880 --> 00:37:31.159
we all did not bring up a bunch of rain

741
00:37:31.199 --> 00:37:35.760
ponchos and galoshes, you know. But then also we were

742
00:37:35.840 --> 00:37:37.800
camping together to your point, and there was there was

743
00:37:37.880 --> 00:37:40.079
it was this weird point of like, yeah, this is

744
00:37:40.079 --> 00:37:42.079
actually what this could and should be also right, like

745
00:37:42.119 --> 00:37:44.000
that we can all be here together in this space

746
00:37:44.039 --> 00:37:45.920
and and and I think all of us hadn't realized

747
00:37:45.960 --> 00:37:46.400
we were.

748
00:37:46.280 --> 00:37:48.000
Not being intentional about spending time together.

749
00:37:48.320 --> 00:37:48.480
You know.

750
00:37:48.519 --> 00:37:49.840
It's like I wanna go run off with awsto go

751
00:37:49.880 --> 00:37:51.639
run out with Adam. I'll run off with Lou over here,

752
00:37:51.679 --> 00:37:53.400
like who we can go see. It was like always

753
00:37:53.440 --> 00:37:57.159
about getting out versus like being in. And there's something

754
00:37:57.199 --> 00:37:59.719
that was very i don't know, cathartic about like stay

755
00:37:59.719 --> 00:38:02.360
put stay here now totally.

756
00:38:02.480 --> 00:38:05.320
You know. One of the the important things that we

757
00:38:05.400 --> 00:38:07.760
explore maybe that you could say the underpinning of what

758
00:38:08.199 --> 00:38:13.079
ceremonia is is this idea of connection. Okay, and yeah

759
00:38:13.119 --> 00:38:14.719
I was. I was just with Esther Perel. Do you

760
00:38:14.760 --> 00:38:15.679
know what that is? Oh?

761
00:38:15.760 --> 00:38:16.280
Yes, yeah.

762
00:38:16.280 --> 00:38:18.639
She's considered one of the top relationship psychologists in the

763
00:38:18.679 --> 00:38:22.159
world and a New York Times bestselling author on relationships,

764
00:38:22.559 --> 00:38:26.000
and she she's like, she asked the question, what's the

765
00:38:26.079 --> 00:38:28.039
last thing you stroke at night and the first thing

766
00:38:28.079 --> 00:38:32.079
you caressed in the morning, And it's your phone, you know.

767
00:38:32.440 --> 00:38:35.480
And the crazy thing is like, the people that we

768
00:38:35.559 --> 00:38:39.800
love the most are often the ones that we most ignore. Right.

769
00:38:40.360 --> 00:38:43.360
And and one of the big revelations that people often

770
00:38:43.440 --> 00:38:47.159
have coming out of a ceremonia or treat is how

771
00:38:47.199 --> 00:38:53.760
can I be experience connection? Here's the thing. Everybody creeps connection, everybody,

772
00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:57.280
whether you are a child or you're an elderly person. Right,

773
00:38:57.840 --> 00:38:59.800
But a lot of people don't actually know what can

774
00:39:00.039 --> 00:39:04.119
a truly feels like if I were to ask ten

775
00:39:04.159 --> 00:39:07.239
people on the street, how are you? What's the answers?

776
00:39:07.280 --> 00:39:13.039
I would get okay, fine, good, okay, great, And they

777
00:39:13.039 --> 00:39:15.760
could be miserable, they could be depressed, be angry, and

778
00:39:15.800 --> 00:39:19.039
they'll still say fine, right yeah, And it's and it's

779
00:39:19.920 --> 00:39:26.119
there's this unavailability of self when we're often interacting with

780
00:39:26.159 --> 00:39:27.800
people out in the world, and part of that comes

781
00:39:27.840 --> 00:39:32.119
from our own unavailability or misattainment of our own selves.

782
00:39:32.400 --> 00:39:32.599
Right.

783
00:39:33.800 --> 00:39:37.880
Developing connection begins with awareness. You can only consciously change

784
00:39:38.199 --> 00:39:41.440
what you're aware of, because if you didn't have self awareness,

785
00:39:41.440 --> 00:39:44.719
if you didn't have mindfulness, fine is an appropriate answer

786
00:39:44.960 --> 00:39:47.960
because fine is basically blah, it's neutral, there's nothing, there's

787
00:39:48.239 --> 00:39:49.800
I don't know about you. I've never felt fine one

788
00:39:49.840 --> 00:39:52.199
moment in my life. I've been pissed off, I've been depressed,

789
00:39:52.199 --> 00:39:55.800
I've been joyous and comedic. But what's fine?

790
00:39:56.039 --> 00:39:56.239
Right?

791
00:39:57.639 --> 00:40:02.880
And so by first developing awareness, yes, and then developing

792
00:40:02.960 --> 00:40:07.039
the aspects of connection, which are being curious, being compassionate

793
00:40:07.280 --> 00:40:10.760
in presence with each other. Do you notice Well, you're

794
00:40:10.760 --> 00:40:13.480
an anthropologist, so which is which is form of science? Right?

795
00:40:14.159 --> 00:40:17.239
Do you notice like if you're speaking with somebody in

796
00:40:17.280 --> 00:40:20.119
your field and they're telling a story of the past,

797
00:40:20.440 --> 00:40:22.800
let's say, telling a story of someone you don't even know,

798
00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:26.159
do you ever have that experience of like your your

799
00:40:26.199 --> 00:40:28.679
awareness is zooming out. You're just like they're becoming a

800
00:40:28.719 --> 00:40:30.840
little seback and you're just zoning out. You know what

801
00:40:30.840 --> 00:40:31.480
I'm talking about?

802
00:40:31.719 --> 00:40:36.320
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's away you know the planet exactly.

803
00:40:36.440 --> 00:40:40.760
That's because you are no longer feeling yourself. Because you're

804
00:40:40.800 --> 00:40:43.760
not feeling them, it's hard to relate to them. But

805
00:40:43.800 --> 00:40:46.840
if I were to share with you, like I'm you know,

806
00:40:46.960 --> 00:40:50.400
I'm feeling this ticklishness in my body right now, and

807
00:40:51.280 --> 00:40:54.559
there's this rising energy from my heart to my throat

808
00:40:54.559 --> 00:40:58.320
and it feels like inspiration. And I'm just relating to

809
00:40:58.360 --> 00:41:00.599
you what it's like to be me right now. That's

810
00:41:00.639 --> 00:41:05.159
the basis of connection because we're here together, you in

811
00:41:05.239 --> 00:41:09.159
me describing that. I imagine you're feeling me more in this moment,

812
00:41:09.400 --> 00:41:12.000
right And if I hear from you the impact of that,

813
00:41:12.079 --> 00:41:16.880
like how you feel like, oh, suddenly we have this reciprocity.

814
00:41:16.960 --> 00:41:20.679
It's something we're really missing in our modern world. Connection.

815
00:41:21.800 --> 00:41:25.800
Yeah, I think that's a beautiful point. And I think

816
00:41:25.840 --> 00:41:28.440
you're also right, you know that there is there's so

817
00:41:28.519 --> 00:41:31.400
much that we're looking for, right And even like you know,

818
00:41:31.639 --> 00:41:34.920
as you kind of were talking about how you were

819
00:41:35.440 --> 00:41:37.880
reflecting on like Bernie Man twenty twenty two versus twenty three,

820
00:41:37.960 --> 00:41:39.639
it's like there's this feeling of chasing, right or always

821
00:41:39.719 --> 00:41:41.519
kind of rushing after something also, and like, I think

822
00:41:41.519 --> 00:41:44.000
that that reflects this idea too, that we often feel

823
00:41:44.039 --> 00:41:48.119
that profound disconnection, right, and that I think it's echoed

824
00:41:48.320 --> 00:41:50.639
in this idea of trying to always chase something. And

825
00:41:50.960 --> 00:41:53.400
you know, that's where the idea fomo comes comes from too,

826
00:41:53.400 --> 00:41:56.440
I think, you know, and like, but I think it's

827
00:41:56.679 --> 00:42:00.199
a profound idea for us to even think about. As

828
00:42:00.199 --> 00:42:01.639
we describe and even as you said that, you think

829
00:42:01.639 --> 00:42:03.039
of this energy kind of cold comeing up fro your

830
00:42:03.039 --> 00:42:04.719
heart tooth throat as this like this, you know, this

831
00:42:04.800 --> 00:42:07.440
feeling of of inspiration and excitement.

832
00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:09.360
It's like immediately is like you know, beginning to.

833
00:42:10.079 --> 00:42:13.079
You know, empacthtically trying to feel that that that vibe too,

834
00:42:13.119 --> 00:42:14.599
and it's like that, actually that feels great, you know.

835
00:42:14.880 --> 00:42:16.159
Or even if you if you had said, like I

836
00:42:16.159 --> 00:42:18.400
feel super weird or awkward and unhappy right now our stuff,

837
00:42:18.400 --> 00:42:20.519
I could say, well, okay, you know, like I'd say, okay,

838
00:42:20.559 --> 00:42:21.199
what does that feel like?

839
00:42:21.360 --> 00:42:22.760
How do I feel? How do I feel that as well?

840
00:42:22.800 --> 00:42:22.960
You know?

841
00:42:23.000 --> 00:42:25.320
And so it is interesting too, it's like we almost

842
00:42:25.320 --> 00:42:27.079
we do a disservice to ourselves often to just say

843
00:42:27.119 --> 00:42:32.280
I'm fine right like on it's it's you know, leaving

844
00:42:32.320 --> 00:42:33.880
that kind of wall of this connection up and like

845
00:42:33.920 --> 00:42:36.079
both between I think two or more people, but then

846
00:42:36.079 --> 00:42:39.559
also between self, you know, and and and what you're expressing, right,

847
00:42:39.559 --> 00:42:41.679
because it's often like that this is not even how

848
00:42:41.719 --> 00:42:43.599
I feel right, because you're right. I've never just been like, oh,

849
00:42:43.760 --> 00:42:45.599
I feel I feel five out of ten right now.

850
00:42:45.920 --> 00:42:46.079
You know.

851
00:42:46.159 --> 00:42:48.679
It's like that's not really a very common thing that

852
00:42:48.760 --> 00:42:51.360
we do, but we kind of have this blase answer

853
00:42:51.960 --> 00:42:55.280
because on the other side, too, no one's on the

854
00:42:55.280 --> 00:42:57.320
street actually asking how you're doing right, you know. And

855
00:42:57.320 --> 00:42:59.239
it's this funny point, like I don't about I always

856
00:42:59.239 --> 00:43:00.920
feel a tempted to tell when actually how I do feel.

857
00:43:00.960 --> 00:43:03.159
You know, I'm having a terrible day, but like you,

858
00:43:03.320 --> 00:43:05.480
you want to give them something beside the fine, you know,

859
00:43:05.559 --> 00:43:07.119
when when if you if you're passing with someone, like

860
00:43:07.159 --> 00:43:08.159
you know, I'm not going to make you stop and

861
00:43:08.199 --> 00:43:10.440
talk to me for thirty minutes about my day necessarily,

862
00:43:10.519 --> 00:43:11.880
but like you want to be you want to have

863
00:43:11.920 --> 00:43:13.920
a more moment of human connection as part of that too.

864
00:43:13.960 --> 00:43:16.880
And I think that there's like, uh, I see craving

865
00:43:16.920 --> 00:43:18.119
for that a lot, you know, and in both in

866
00:43:18.159 --> 00:43:19.800
the clients that I work for. But then then I'll

867
00:43:20.079 --> 00:43:22.079
work with but then also you know, yeah again talking

868
00:43:22.119 --> 00:43:25.079
to a friend on the street, this this uh, this need,

869
00:43:25.079 --> 00:43:28.639
and so I think there's there's something important there that

870
00:43:29.119 --> 00:43:31.079
I'm excited to hear the kind of ceremony of finds

871
00:43:31.280 --> 00:43:32.880
like and even g like that this is.

872
00:43:32.840 --> 00:43:34.280
Like an area of intentionality.

873
00:43:34.360 --> 00:43:36.199
Is that like how do we bring that connectivity back

874
00:43:36.880 --> 00:43:38.960
in so many it seems like of these modalities too,

875
00:43:38.960 --> 00:43:40.880
because I was excited to see that you have Dick

876
00:43:40.880 --> 00:43:43.280
Schwartz from from you know, Integrated Family Systems will be

877
00:43:43.320 --> 00:43:45.320
on your podcast soon and like, and I think that's

878
00:43:45.360 --> 00:43:48.400
there's been such a really interesting uh form of psychotherapy

879
00:43:48.400 --> 00:43:50.880
that's come out too in terms of like rethinking about

880
00:43:51.519 --> 00:43:53.599
different parts of oneself as integrating into a whole. But

881
00:43:53.639 --> 00:43:55.360
like there's different family members, you know, or kind of

882
00:43:55.360 --> 00:43:58.840
playing different roles, and you know, I think that like

883
00:43:59.000 --> 00:44:00.880
there's these again to come back to your kind of

884
00:44:00.920 --> 00:44:03.280
enlightenment models to think with two where it's like this

885
00:44:03.360 --> 00:44:06.519
idea of connectivity and wholeness, like are such these important

886
00:44:06.519 --> 00:44:08.280
parts that we.

887
00:44:08.239 --> 00:44:09.199
Can we can bring in?

888
00:44:09.239 --> 00:44:12.039
And so I guess, like how can I think about

889
00:44:12.039 --> 00:44:15.519
connectivity across like it is of wholeness, nothingness, emptiness and

890
00:44:15.519 --> 00:44:17.719
and oneness, Like does does connectivity connect to the three

891
00:44:17.760 --> 00:44:18.239
of them together?

892
00:44:18.280 --> 00:44:21.599
Do do I feel all them kind of you know,

893
00:44:21.679 --> 00:44:23.199
bringing bringing me through all of them?

894
00:44:23.199 --> 00:44:24.519
Like I'm trying to think about how I can put

895
00:44:24.599 --> 00:44:27.840
connected connectedness with with those other elements.

896
00:44:29.000 --> 00:44:35.079
Yes. Absolutely so. We have a window next to our

897
00:44:35.079 --> 00:44:37.920
workshop room and it's full of post its, okay, And

898
00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:41.239
in these post its we have our participants, right, a

899
00:44:41.360 --> 00:44:46.119
memorable line that they heard in our in our integration

900
00:44:46.280 --> 00:44:50.000
process in the workshops, et cetera. And their lines like

901
00:44:50.519 --> 00:44:55.400
of course or you know, uh, I love myself again

902
00:44:55.519 --> 00:44:57.920
or something like that. But a line that keeps recurring

903
00:44:58.559 --> 00:45:03.000
in our journey is it's okay to not be okaymm

904
00:45:03.639 --> 00:45:06.760
think about that. It's okay to not be okay. When

905
00:45:06.800 --> 00:45:10.079
someone says I'm fine, what's happening is there's a blockage

906
00:45:10.119 --> 00:45:13.559
to their vulnerability, right, because in that moment, I might

907
00:45:13.599 --> 00:45:16.840
not feel safe to tell you that I'm having a

908
00:45:16.840 --> 00:45:20.519
really shitty day, right, and I feel and I've been

909
00:45:20.559 --> 00:45:22.719
struggling with depression and I've been you know, whatever it

910
00:45:22.800 --> 00:45:28.320
is for that individual, right, And so why is it

911
00:45:28.440 --> 00:45:32.119
hard for me to share that? Well, you're an anthropologist.

912
00:45:33.280 --> 00:45:36.000
Maybe the reason why is if I revealed to you

913
00:45:36.199 --> 00:45:40.360
that I'm vulnerable, aka, I'm revealing my neck to you,

914
00:45:40.360 --> 00:45:42.960
you might be a predator that's going to kill me. Right.

915
00:45:43.039 --> 00:45:47.599
That's an evolutionary, like, that's some evolution that happened, right,

916
00:45:48.559 --> 00:45:51.880
And so much of the path of adulting is to

917
00:45:52.000 --> 00:45:55.519
be okay, knowing that you're going to be okay, right,

918
00:45:56.159 --> 00:46:00.679
that the safety that we seek outside is actually we're

919
00:46:00.760 --> 00:46:06.639
constantly trying to fill an infinitely deep black hole inside

920
00:46:07.079 --> 00:46:09.639
because this because we get to find the safety that

921
00:46:09.679 --> 00:46:15.199
we feel inwards. The first emotional psychologist, Plectrick, he made

922
00:46:15.199 --> 00:46:18.599
this beautiful, colorful emotional wheel. I used to have it

923
00:46:18.639 --> 00:46:20.840
on my as a refrigerator magnet. If you've seen it, it

924
00:46:20.840 --> 00:46:25.880
says like here the six primary emotions joy, sadness, or disgusting, right,

925
00:46:25.920 --> 00:46:29.639
and then like secondary emotions, et cetera. And he says

926
00:46:29.639 --> 00:46:34.559
that love is equal to safety plus joy. Think about

927
00:46:34.599 --> 00:46:37.679
that for a moment, right, safety plus joy. In order

928
00:46:37.760 --> 00:46:40.519
for you to feel love, you need to feel safe.

929
00:46:40.920 --> 00:46:44.039
And it makes sense. All of life seeks to create life.

930
00:46:44.199 --> 00:46:46.880
In order for life to evolve, it needs to feel safe.

931
00:46:46.920 --> 00:46:50.480
Like if you watch a dog taking a shit, that

932
00:46:50.519 --> 00:46:53.400
dog is looking every which way for predators. It's the

933
00:46:53.480 --> 00:46:57.159
most vulnerable moment for that dog, right, and this and

934
00:46:57.320 --> 00:47:01.079
we're not that much different except we hide behind and

935
00:47:01.119 --> 00:47:04.840
so so much of the pathway to connection is connecting

936
00:47:04.880 --> 00:47:09.159
with ourselves, right, And the first step again is awareness,

937
00:47:09.199 --> 00:47:15.559
but the second step is attention. Attention is power. Where

938
00:47:15.599 --> 00:47:17.760
you put your attention and how you command other people's

939
00:47:17.760 --> 00:47:21.920
attention is your power. Right. And if if there is

940
00:47:21.960 --> 00:47:23.960
a trigger that you have where you would normally fight,

941
00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:27.840
flight or freeze, imagine what you would be available to

942
00:47:27.840 --> 00:47:29.679
you if you were able to put that attention on

943
00:47:29.719 --> 00:47:33.719
yourself with loving kindness. So rom Dos tells the story

944
00:47:34.000 --> 00:47:37.599
of coming back to New York City after being in

945
00:47:37.599 --> 00:47:41.280
India with his guru Maharaji. And he's walking around New

946
00:47:41.360 --> 00:47:43.800
York barefoot in all white robe. He's got a long

947
00:47:44.199 --> 00:47:48.039
you know, gray beard, right, And and he gets in

948
00:47:48.079 --> 00:47:50.760
a car with his father, in a taxi with his father,

949
00:47:50.920 --> 00:47:52.719
and then in the back seat and his father looks

950
00:47:52.760 --> 00:47:57.119
at him, He's like, Richard, when are you going to

951
00:47:57.159 --> 00:48:01.719
get a job? And in that moment, he gets triggered

952
00:48:02.079 --> 00:48:04.280
and he and then he laughs at himself. He says

953
00:48:04.559 --> 00:48:08.239
to himself in his own mind, oh, oh, rom Dous,

954
00:48:08.280 --> 00:48:11.719
you think you're so enlightened, right, try spending an evening

955
00:48:11.800 --> 00:48:17.519
with your family. I relate that story because these triggers

956
00:48:17.639 --> 00:48:21.960
are opportunities for us to see the parts of ourselves

957
00:48:22.039 --> 00:48:26.440
that we don't want to see, and wholeness is about

958
00:48:26.840 --> 00:48:30.400
loving those parts, giving ourselves love for those parts instead

959
00:48:30.400 --> 00:48:32.000
of seeking that externally.

960
00:48:32.480 --> 00:48:36.079
Right, Yeah, I think that that's Yeah, that makes me

961
00:48:36.119 --> 00:48:40.119
think that there is there's actould a blog post that

962
00:48:40.119 --> 00:48:42.480
you've written also that that got that really hit me too,

963
00:48:42.480 --> 00:48:44.960
where you were talking about the learning to embrace anger

964
00:48:44.960 --> 00:48:47.559
actually as a potential like not not to be angry.

965
00:48:47.360 --> 00:48:49.400
But just like to It's similar to the idea that

966
00:48:49.400 --> 00:48:49.960
we may.

967
00:48:49.880 --> 00:48:51.679
Find parts of ourselves that we don't want to embrace

968
00:48:51.960 --> 00:48:54.000
or bring up right, but then the right kind of

969
00:48:54.039 --> 00:48:55.840
therapy or medicine are there bodies can bring us there

970
00:48:55.880 --> 00:48:57.679
right and kind of help us come back to them.

971
00:48:58.079 --> 00:48:59.960
And in this post you were talking about this this idea,

972
00:49:00.119 --> 00:49:03.920
like this interesting kind of use of anger in terms

973
00:49:03.960 --> 00:49:05.559
of like we're able to have a kind of practice

974
00:49:05.559 --> 00:49:07.639
like you're working with with three other folks I think

975
00:49:08.079 --> 00:49:10.480
you're and your partner and then like figuring out what

976
00:49:10.480 --> 00:49:12.239
it meant to like kind of talk angrily like you like,

977
00:49:12.280 --> 00:49:13.920
And part of it was not to be mad, but

978
00:49:14.039 --> 00:49:16.440
just like to say that we hide parts of ourselves

979
00:49:16.440 --> 00:49:18.360
that we that we think are ugly of ourselves, right,

980
00:49:18.400 --> 00:49:20.159
and anger can often be one of those which is

981
00:49:20.199 --> 00:49:22.800
interesting and obviously in a challenging space because it's like

982
00:49:23.360 --> 00:49:25.079
I don't want either want to be aggressive or be

983
00:49:25.119 --> 00:49:27.360
seen as angry or whatever it is for to other people,

984
00:49:27.440 --> 00:49:31.400
especially to our most loved ones. But I'm curious like

985
00:49:31.719 --> 00:49:34.280
about that too, right, And that because something that you

986
00:49:34.320 --> 00:49:36.199
said that was really really profound in there in one

987
00:49:36.199 --> 00:49:39.760
of your fightings too, is that like, only by not

988
00:49:39.800 --> 00:49:41.880
wanting to share that part of yourself or that pathway

989
00:49:41.920 --> 00:49:44.079
of expression that you ultimately then we're not taking care

990
00:49:44.079 --> 00:49:46.679
of yourself or your relationship, right because by by hiding

991
00:49:46.679 --> 00:49:49.000
a part of yourself or like basically disintegrating or keeping

992
00:49:49.000 --> 00:49:52.000
something that we thought was ugly out didn't help us.

993
00:49:52.039 --> 00:49:54.360
And this is a really really powerful thing just to

994
00:49:54.400 --> 00:49:58.239
even think about again, in like the broader conversation of

995
00:49:58.679 --> 00:50:01.199
the integrative practice, right for kind of bringing ourselves to

996
00:50:01.239 --> 00:50:05.360
be more whole. That we can take a psychoedely Liken therapeuticapath,

997
00:50:05.400 --> 00:50:08.559
we can also take a like, let's practice expressing anger

998
00:50:08.599 --> 00:50:12.360
healthily right in a certain way. So I'm curious to

999
00:50:12.400 --> 00:50:14.599
kind of get your experience there to it, and like

1000
00:50:15.480 --> 00:50:17.320
helpfulks kind of walk through that idea too. Of like that,

1001
00:50:17.320 --> 00:50:18.800
we can also we can take an emotion that we

1002
00:50:18.840 --> 00:50:21.159
don't think, we think it's ugly, right, and recognize by

1003
00:50:21.199 --> 00:50:23.440
doing that if we try to shine it away, we're

1004
00:50:23.440 --> 00:50:26.920
actually blocking something else important about ourselves in our relationships.

1005
00:50:27.559 --> 00:50:31.760
Totally. The keyword that you use there is healthily because

1006
00:50:31.880 --> 00:50:35.519
anger is an emotion. Anger actually, as we're communicating, is

1007
00:50:35.519 --> 00:50:38.440
a word. Yea. It's a word and words vocabulary or

1008
00:50:38.480 --> 00:50:42.400
frameworks for trying to communicate an idea. Right, But if

1009
00:50:42.440 --> 00:50:45.239
you look at what's underneath the idea, the emotion, the

1010
00:50:45.239 --> 00:50:48.960
feeling of anger, imagine that that is an energy that's

1011
00:50:49.119 --> 00:50:52.480
trapped in your body. Okay, and anger can come out

1012
00:50:52.719 --> 00:50:56.800
explosively or it can come out in microaggressions. And I

1013
00:50:56.840 --> 00:51:01.400
was certainly the latter. I remember with my wife there

1014
00:51:01.400 --> 00:51:07.039
were a string of days where I was getting more

1015
00:51:07.079 --> 00:51:10.440
and more upset at having an expectation of like, Okay,

1016
00:51:10.440 --> 00:51:12.800
we're gonna get out the door at six pm. I

1017
00:51:12.840 --> 00:51:14.840
don't know how many guys have had this experience. We're

1018
00:51:14.840 --> 00:51:17.599
gonna get out the door at six pm at six ten, Oh,

1019
00:51:17.639 --> 00:51:20.760
I'll just be another five minutes, six twenty, just another

1020
00:51:20.800 --> 00:51:23.239
five minutes. I was like, that was fifteen minutes ago.

1021
00:51:23.719 --> 00:51:26.599
She didn't know that. And then I kept my mouth shut.

1022
00:51:26.639 --> 00:51:28.239
I kept my mouth shut to keep the peace, keep

1023
00:51:28.239 --> 00:51:30.000
the peace, and you know, partially because maybe I just

1024
00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:34.159
want to get laid that night. I don't know, dea so.

1025
00:51:34.239 --> 00:51:38.800
But the next day I remember like observing myself, I'd

1026
00:51:38.800 --> 00:51:42.280
be like, hey, hey, babe, did you wash the dishes?

1027
00:51:42.599 --> 00:51:44.480
I knew full well that she didn't wash the dishes

1028
00:51:45.199 --> 00:51:47.440
and she had committed to, right, did you let it

1029
00:51:47.559 --> 00:51:49.159
let out the dog? I knew full well she didn't,

1030
00:51:49.400 --> 00:51:54.800
and I was merely saying it to generate guilt in her. Right.

1031
00:51:55.159 --> 00:51:59.360
That's a microaggression. And and you know, I've related this story.

1032
00:52:00.079 --> 00:52:02.519
I was on a podcast with a half million downloads

1033
00:52:02.519 --> 00:52:04.760
where I was sharing a letter that I wrote around

1034
00:52:04.760 --> 00:52:08.199
this story. And it's like so many people could relate,

1035
00:52:08.239 --> 00:52:14.000
because whatever your flavor of discharging that energy is, it

1036
00:52:14.039 --> 00:52:16.920
either comes out in a conscious way or an unconscious way,

1037
00:52:17.719 --> 00:52:20.239
or it doesn't come out. And that's even worse because

1038
00:52:20.280 --> 00:52:22.679
when it doesn't come out, let's say anger that we

1039
00:52:22.719 --> 00:52:25.679
have towards our parents, right, And let's say that's something

1040
00:52:25.679 --> 00:52:27.880
that gets trapped for a really long time, that gets

1041
00:52:27.880 --> 00:52:31.000
trapped in our bodies, and that energy that gets trapped

1042
00:52:31.000 --> 00:52:33.920
in our bodies. There's great science, a book called Body

1043
00:52:33.960 --> 00:52:38.639
Keeps the Score that shows that that trapped energy can

1044
00:52:38.719 --> 00:52:44.199
lead to ill health, to cancer, to heart attacks, to sickness,

1045
00:52:44.199 --> 00:52:50.719
to disease, to the degradation of our immune system. Right now,

1046
00:52:51.000 --> 00:52:53.840
there's a healthy way to communicate anger, and I'll do

1047
00:52:53.880 --> 00:52:58.800
it for you right now. Ready, Hey, Adam, I'm feeling

1048
00:52:58.880 --> 00:53:03.920
anger right now, and I have this need to feel

1049
00:53:04.679 --> 00:53:11.960
seen and heard and honored. And when I experienced getting

1050
00:53:12.159 --> 00:53:16.199
cut off or interrupted by you, then I just I

1051
00:53:16.280 --> 00:53:21.320
felt like minimized. And my request is that we slow

1052
00:53:21.360 --> 00:53:24.360
down our conversation and acknowledge what each of us says.

1053
00:53:24.719 --> 00:53:26.519
By the way, this is hypothetical, You've been doing great.

1054
00:53:26.840 --> 00:53:32.679
I'm just like, yeah, you know, like that's a form

1055
00:53:32.840 --> 00:53:34.400
of healthily sharing anchor.

1056
00:53:34.920 --> 00:53:39.320
Yeah, yeah, that's that's really important too, because it's oftentimes

1057
00:53:39.320 --> 00:53:41.360
we have, you know, that that that fight or flight

1058
00:53:41.400 --> 00:53:42.760
moment where it's like I get mad and I want

1059
00:53:42.760 --> 00:53:45.119
to I want to just throw something out because I

1060
00:53:45.119 --> 00:53:47.039
think exactly as you said too, Like the healthy way

1061
00:53:47.079 --> 00:53:49.320
is to say, I would like to be seen and

1062
00:53:49.400 --> 00:53:51.519
heard versus I'm going to snap out so that you

1063
00:53:51.599 --> 00:53:55.119
see and hear me and can't deny that I'm.

1064
00:53:54.960 --> 00:53:55.320
Here, right.

1065
00:53:55.360 --> 00:53:58.599
I think it's it's interesting to recognize that we're seeking

1066
00:53:58.599 --> 00:54:00.480
to accomplish the same goal there, right, but like the

1067
00:54:00.519 --> 00:54:04.159
pathway that through which we do that is fundamentally different.

1068
00:54:05.320 --> 00:54:06.960
And I also appreciate what you said there too in

1069
00:54:07.039 --> 00:54:10.159
terms of the it can be explosive or these these

1070
00:54:10.159 --> 00:54:13.639
microaggressions too that we often sometimes don't even recognize, Like

1071
00:54:13.639 --> 00:54:15.280
we know I'm mad, so therefore'm gonna say the thing,

1072
00:54:15.320 --> 00:54:16.679
I know you didn't do the dishes, but did you

1073
00:54:16.719 --> 00:54:19.000
do the dishes? Not because I want you to know

1074
00:54:19.079 --> 00:54:20.519
that I know you didn't do the dishes, but because

1075
00:54:20.519 --> 00:54:22.960
I want you to feel guilty about it. And like

1076
00:54:23.840 --> 00:54:26.480
recognizing that that pathway also think is really really a

1077
00:54:26.519 --> 00:54:28.679
powerful thing to recognize, Like what what am I doing?

1078
00:54:28.760 --> 00:54:28.920
Right?

1079
00:54:28.960 --> 00:54:31.519
And it's like can I pause to say, why am

1080
00:54:31.559 --> 00:54:34.559
I choosing to express this feeling that way? Like why

1081
00:54:34.559 --> 00:54:37.360
am I choosing to like go down this like sneaky

1082
00:54:37.480 --> 00:54:39.639
side pathway that like or a think of being sneaky

1083
00:54:40.079 --> 00:54:43.360
right to get because I want to get something else

1084
00:54:43.400 --> 00:54:45.239
out and so like it is really interesting kind of

1085
00:54:45.239 --> 00:54:47.800
piece for us to kind of think about that when

1086
00:54:47.840 --> 00:54:50.440
we're trying to kind of bring ourselves together. Right, It's

1087
00:54:50.480 --> 00:54:52.599
that it's that there's there's these parts of us that

1088
00:54:52.639 --> 00:54:54.639
can be these shadow sides, right, or the kind of

1089
00:54:54.639 --> 00:54:56.159
shadow work or dark sides, and like they can but

1090
00:54:56.159 --> 00:54:58.480
they can even be like these entrance points, like these

1091
00:54:58.480 --> 00:55:01.920
more negative emotions that we or that we call quote

1092
00:55:01.960 --> 00:55:03.880
unquote negative. Right, But you know, even I think, as

1093
00:55:03.920 --> 00:55:06.480
you very wonderfully demonstrated there, like there's ways to let

1094
00:55:06.559 --> 00:55:10.400
those go or to move past them and say and yeah.

1095
00:55:10.199 --> 00:55:12.159
And how yeah, and.

1096
00:55:12.159 --> 00:55:15.800
How often have we inhibited ourselves from connection because we

1097
00:55:15.920 --> 00:55:21.199
haven't mustered the courage or or embodied the curiosity to

1098
00:55:21.199 --> 00:55:23.480
to say or explore what we're actually feeling?

1099
00:55:23.719 --> 00:55:25.239
Yeah, right, that's totally true.

1100
00:55:25.280 --> 00:55:26.920
And I think that comes to the safety question, right

1101
00:55:26.920 --> 00:55:28.199
that I don't it's if part of it is like

1102
00:55:28.199 --> 00:55:31.440
do I feel safe expressing actually what I feel or not?

1103
00:55:31.800 --> 00:55:35.639
You know, and like, and I think that's a magical

1104
00:55:35.639 --> 00:55:37.599
moment there too, of like how can we learn to

1105
00:55:37.599 --> 00:55:39.719
do that for ourselves? But then also like, because it's

1106
00:55:39.719 --> 00:55:42.159
always in conversation either with us with ourselves or with

1107
00:55:42.239 --> 00:55:44.039
with others, right, and a lot of it we like

1108
00:55:44.119 --> 00:55:46.440
learn society tells us don't talk like that, don't don't

1109
00:55:46.480 --> 00:55:48.679
don't actually tell somebody how you're how your day is, right,

1110
00:55:48.679 --> 00:55:50.320
say I'm fine. You know, we get we get all

1111
00:55:50.360 --> 00:55:52.920
these like subtle and not those little cues of how

1112
00:55:52.960 --> 00:55:55.360
we're quote unquote supposed to actually that we internalize a

1113
00:55:55.360 --> 00:55:58.760
lot of those. And then you know, to your point too,

1114
00:55:58.800 --> 00:56:00.880
like we may take some anger with our parents that

1115
00:56:00.880 --> 00:56:02.760
we didn't he realized we had when we were sixteen

1116
00:56:02.840 --> 00:56:06.039
or twelve or ten, and then it pops up, you know,

1117
00:56:06.039 --> 00:56:08.400
when we're thirty five or forty in a really weird

1118
00:56:08.400 --> 00:56:10.159
way that we relate with our spouse or our best

1119
00:56:10.159 --> 00:56:14.519
friend or something. And it's always interesting to have these

1120
00:56:14.519 --> 00:56:15.960
moments when you when you hear people to come back

1121
00:56:15.960 --> 00:56:17.599
to you your sequel point from the beginning, right that,

1122
00:56:17.679 --> 00:56:20.880
like when there's these moments of profound transformation when like

1123
00:56:20.920 --> 00:56:23.079
we didn't just change the chapter, but like the book

1124
00:56:23.159 --> 00:56:25.199
ended and now we're in like part two. You know

1125
00:56:25.920 --> 00:56:29.840
that that you know, are are I think really powerful

1126
00:56:29.840 --> 00:56:31.199
for us? And then said this is like why am

1127
00:56:31.199 --> 00:56:33.480
I why and how can I make make a change?

1128
00:56:33.480 --> 00:56:35.320
And so I don't know, I'm just I'm relating this

1129
00:56:35.360 --> 00:56:37.400
back to the in like this this point, I think

1130
00:56:37.440 --> 00:56:39.599
it's it's very powerful to even kind of think with

1131
00:56:39.639 --> 00:56:42.840
your story too, and then how we can take something

1132
00:56:42.880 --> 00:56:44.480
that opens us up in a way that makes us

1133
00:56:44.519 --> 00:56:49.119
very vulnerable and then create a powerful you know, new pathway,

1134
00:56:49.159 --> 00:56:51.719
new wave, you know in new new uh you know,

1135
00:56:51.840 --> 00:56:54.079
opening for others too. So I just want to say

1136
00:56:54.199 --> 00:56:55.679
I applaud the work that you're doing. Anythink this is

1137
00:56:55.679 --> 00:56:57.199
this has been a great conversation.

1138
00:56:57.480 --> 00:57:00.000
So far, and I'm excited.

1139
00:57:00.039 --> 00:57:02.199
I did to know that you've got a book coming

1140
00:57:02.199 --> 00:57:04.159
out also in like that we can we can hopefully

1141
00:57:04.199 --> 00:57:05.719
dive into that when when that comes out as well

1142
00:57:05.719 --> 00:57:08.079
too and kind of think and dive deeper into the

1143
00:57:08.079 --> 00:57:10.880
idea of hondering light makes it's to be such an

1144
00:57:10.880 --> 00:57:13.960
exciting place. And also like what does it mean to

1145
00:57:14.000 --> 00:57:17.039
provide new spiritual spaces for folks? You know, I mean

1146
00:57:17.079 --> 00:57:18.880
and uh, maybe you have a few minutes, I'd love

1147
00:57:18.920 --> 00:57:20.880
to talk about that too, real quickly, just like this

1148
00:57:20.880 --> 00:57:24.000
this idea of like how we can bring those about.

1149
00:57:24.079 --> 00:57:25.840
You know the fact that this is you're working with

1150
00:57:25.840 --> 00:57:28.360
an entheogenic church that you've created like that that idea,

1151
00:57:28.440 --> 00:57:30.119
like you have to go through these like odd legal

1152
00:57:30.159 --> 00:57:32.679
structures in the United States and to be able to

1153
00:57:32.719 --> 00:57:35.880
have a certain kind of business practice, right, but then

1154
00:57:35.920 --> 00:57:39.000
on top of that, like a therapeutic and plant medicine practice,

1155
00:57:39.960 --> 00:57:40.960
I get, I don't know, so, I mean, it's like,

1156
00:57:40.960 --> 00:57:42.159
I don't know my question there is it? Just like

1157
00:57:42.159 --> 00:57:43.719
it's been such a such an interesting journey to me

1158
00:57:43.760 --> 00:57:44.960
to the kind of have to go through that that

1159
00:57:45.000 --> 00:57:49.440
process given the odd structures that we have, and like

1160
00:57:49.519 --> 00:57:51.960
you know, we are seeing the FDA change their stance

1161
00:57:52.079 --> 00:57:56.079
slowly on plant medicines and psychedelics. But then also you

1162
00:57:56.119 --> 00:57:57.840
know that you took that bold step of saying, you

1163
00:57:57.880 --> 00:58:00.320
know what, well, I've had some found changes to do

1164
00:58:00.360 --> 00:58:03.400
something new. Let me take this this curious path that

1165
00:58:03.519 --> 00:58:05.480
is U I don't know, were you following your curiosity?

1166
00:58:05.519 --> 00:58:07.599
Like how did you know in anthogemic church had that

1167
00:58:07.599 --> 00:58:09.280
become the answer of the next thing to do?

1168
00:58:10.079 --> 00:58:13.440
Well? Being a church is actually a very meaningful status

1169
00:58:13.599 --> 00:58:16.039
for us, and it's it's so much more than a

1170
00:58:16.119 --> 00:58:20.039
legal status. One of the participants that we that came

1171
00:58:20.039 --> 00:58:22.880
through our container was the president of Unity Church, which

1172
00:58:22.880 --> 00:58:25.719
is a mega Christian Church on on on the East coast.

1173
00:58:26.440 --> 00:58:32.760
And I'll never forget such a gracious man he had

1174
00:58:32.800 --> 00:58:34.920
on his altar. An altar is like just something next

1175
00:58:34.920 --> 00:58:39.519
to your mats as you're undergoing the the psilocybin. In ceremony,

1176
00:58:39.840 --> 00:58:42.960
a picture, a framed picture of Jesus, right, and in

1177
00:58:43.000 --> 00:58:49.000
our center we have religious symbols from all religions, Buddhism, Islam, Christianity,

1178
00:58:49.400 --> 00:58:55.119
hindu Ism, Egyptian like, Greek like all over and and

1179
00:58:55.159 --> 00:58:57.840
I remember seeing this beautiful smile on his face as

1180
00:58:57.840 --> 00:58:59.880
he was looking up. And he shared with me later

1181
00:59:00.320 --> 00:59:03.639
that he felt the greatest connection to Christ that he's

1182
00:59:03.679 --> 00:59:06.360
ever felt in his life. And what's so fascinating is

1183
00:59:06.400 --> 00:59:08.920
his story is not unique. One of our co facilitators

1184
00:59:08.960 --> 00:59:11.159
was a Catholic priest for twenty years, then a zen

1185
00:59:11.199 --> 00:59:14.119
Buddhist monk, and then became one of the world's top

1186
00:59:14.159 --> 00:59:17.800
psychologists and IFS trainers. Right and coming through our container

1187
00:59:17.840 --> 00:59:21.360
first as a participant, he rediscovered his spirituality, which he

1188
00:59:21.400 --> 00:59:25.079
had lost in when he was running un refugee programs

1189
00:59:25.079 --> 00:59:28.639
in East Africa for the Catholic Church. I mean, so

1190
00:59:30.079 --> 00:59:32.039
you know, if you really think about, like, what is

1191
00:59:32.079 --> 00:59:34.760
a church. As an anthropologist, you must know this, like

1192
00:59:34.800 --> 00:59:36.880
the church was the safe haven, it was the gathering

1193
00:59:36.920 --> 00:59:42.159
place of community. Right in wartime, both sides could gather

1194
00:59:42.320 --> 00:59:46.719
in a church and be safe from killing each other.

1195
00:59:47.079 --> 00:59:50.239
Right in peacetime, people would gather in a church and

1196
00:59:50.280 --> 00:59:52.920
that's where the community would get together. That's where we

1197
00:59:52.960 --> 00:59:55.280
would support each other, so on and so forth. So

1198
00:59:55.519 --> 00:59:59.119
in our church number one, as a we have a

1199
00:59:59.159 --> 01:00:03.679
beliefs published on o website, Ceremoniouscircle dot org. But we've

1200
01:00:03.679 --> 01:00:06.599
summarized it into a few points and I'll summarize it

1201
01:00:06.599 --> 01:00:09.960
even further for you. It's really that when we let

1202
01:00:10.079 --> 01:00:13.599
go of our protective parts, we are able to feel

1203
01:00:13.639 --> 01:00:17.119
ourselves more. And when we feel ourselves more, that is

1204
01:00:17.119 --> 01:00:22.599
what feels like spirituality. Right. And we say that truth

1205
01:00:22.719 --> 01:00:25.679
is subjective like what you experience as your truth is

1206
01:00:25.719 --> 01:00:28.159
yours and no one can deny that. But there's also

1207
01:00:28.199 --> 01:00:34.960
an objective truth there that when it's experienced, feels like love, gratitude, peace, harmony, unity, right,

1208
01:00:35.719 --> 01:00:38.920
And that subjective and objective truth begin to merge the

1209
01:00:38.920 --> 01:00:41.679
more that we let go of the things inhibiting us

1210
01:00:41.719 --> 01:00:46.400
from ourselves, and then these plant sacraments of psilocybin and

1211
01:00:46.440 --> 01:00:49.960
ayahuasca are accelerants to help us commune with that that feeling.

1212
01:00:51.840 --> 01:00:55.440
We gather every Sunday our integration process, in fact, preparation

1213
01:00:55.519 --> 01:00:58.719
and integration is literally we meet in community every Sunday.

1214
01:00:59.159 --> 01:01:01.760
First the pot luck that's sharing your challenges and celebrations,

1215
01:01:01.760 --> 01:01:05.800
than the practice called circling, which is a workshop that

1216
01:01:05.840 --> 01:01:10.239
we run in our in our program. And so you know,

1217
01:01:10.840 --> 01:01:15.519
people have this transformative experience, this profound experience which culminates

1218
01:01:16.679 --> 01:01:19.760
ninety nine times of one hundred in a deep spiritual experience,

1219
01:01:20.159 --> 01:01:23.679
and then they're able to come back to church, to community,

1220
01:01:23.840 --> 01:01:27.599
to supporting each other, you know, et cetera.

1221
01:01:27.800 --> 01:01:30.800
And I love that too because it's that it's bringing

1222
01:01:30.840 --> 01:01:33.760
all the things that I remember from church as a kid.

1223
01:01:33.920 --> 01:01:35.960
You know, it's I guess what, it's a very similar

1224
01:01:36.000 --> 01:01:38.800
story for many you know, I don't know many folks

1225
01:01:38.880 --> 01:01:41.079
that like maybe have grown up religious but then found

1226
01:01:41.079 --> 01:01:42.800
their way out of it for various reasons, right, and

1227
01:01:42.840 --> 01:01:47.559
then found some sort of reconnections to spirituality through different means, right,

1228
01:01:47.599 --> 01:01:51.199
but then recognizing that like some of the fundamental powers

1229
01:01:51.880 --> 01:01:54.760
and social goods of church communities themselves are what you're

1230
01:01:54.800 --> 01:01:56.840
describing there too right of like that it's a safe

1231
01:01:56.840 --> 01:01:58.880
place that people can come together to build a community,

1232
01:01:58.880 --> 01:02:02.239
to build a sense of shared identity, and to integrate

1233
01:02:02.320 --> 01:02:04.239
right into their lives, those deeper those deeper meetings. I

1234
01:02:04.239 --> 01:02:06.559
think that that's actually really cool. But Alstin, thank you

1235
01:02:06.559 --> 01:02:08.039
so much joining me on the podcast. This has been

1236
01:02:08.320 --> 01:02:11.920
an enlightening conversation and I've really enjoyed chatting with you,

1237
01:02:12.039 --> 01:02:13.960
and I hope we can do it again, especially when

1238
01:02:13.960 --> 01:02:16.119
you when your book comes out and deep dive from there.

1239
01:02:16.119 --> 01:02:17.519
But thanks again for joining me. That's been been a

1240
01:02:17.559 --> 01:02:17.920
lot of fun.

1241
01:02:18.079 --> 01:02:20.320
Thank you, Adam. This has been great. Yeah, I really

1242
01:02:20.360 --> 01:02:20.920
appreciate you.