May 2, 2026

The Evolution of Work: More Than Just a Paycheck

The Evolution of Work: More Than Just a Paycheck
The Evolution of Work: More Than Just a Paycheck
This Anthro Life
The Evolution of Work: More Than Just a Paycheck
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What if work isn’t just about what we do, but how we think about it? In this episode of This Anthro Life, host Adam Gamwell is joined by Claudia Strauss to unravel the myths and realities behind today’s shifting work culture. They explore the viral claim that “nobody wants to work anymore,” uncovering the hidden forces driving changes in labor, passion, and productivity. From the history of the Puritan work ethic to the rise of AI and gig work, this conversation challenges us to rethink what it really means to find purpose in what we do. How has the idea of hard work evolved? Why do some jobs feel more meaningful than others? And what happens when the very definition of work itself begins to change? This episode is a must-listen for anyone questioning the future of work, purpose, and fulfillment. Whether you’re an employee, entrepreneur, or simply rethinking your career, this conversation will shift your perspective—and maybe even the way you work.
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So you keep hearing nobody wants to work anymore because

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you see these jobs that aren't filled, but they're not

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filed because there are fewer people of working age are

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being born. You know, birth rates are going down. The

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population is great, you get more people like me. For

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a while, we were very restrictive with immigration right under

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a prencident Trumps and that close. You know, that restricted

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the pool of available workers. So that was the real issue.

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There weren't enough workers. But immediately people start moralizing about it. Oh,

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the problem is people's work at did I find that

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fascinating because based on my research, I don't think that's

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the issue at all. You may not want to work

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any particular job that only pays minimum wage and is

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dirty or dangerous, or has weird hours or something. They

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may want to work at a better job, but that

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doesn't mean they don't want to work at all.

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Hello everybody, and welcome to this anthe life. I'm excited

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to have you all here today. I'm Adam gm All

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your host is always and I'm really excited to talk

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with Claudia Strauss today because, on the one hand, we

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know that our nature and ideas around work are changing, right,

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what does work mean to folks today? And that we

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have the rise of remote working. We've had a pandemic

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that has brought the rise of remote working and changing that.

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And then there's lots of contingent labor, gig work, things

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like that. So you know, do I have a nine

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to five? Do I have a forty hour work week?

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All these things are kind of changing and what work

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might mean to us. But the funny thing is that

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the narratives of the kind of national myths that we

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have around what work means are changing a lot much

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much more slowly. And I think that's something that is

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interesting that we can kind of dive into to get

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a sense with.

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But I'm really excited.

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You know, Claudius Stress, you are an anthropologist, you know,

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so I always a good talk with the fellow anthropologist

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and a prof over at Fitzer College. And you have

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a I think a really exciting and important new book

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out that's called What Work Means Beyond the Puritian work Ethic.

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And besides being a nerd that you know, I like

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this idea of the purity and work ethic to think

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about with Max Weber, I love how your work helps

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us explode and think about that. So let's we're going

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to dive into all those things. But first want to say, Claudia,

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thanks for joining me on the podcast today.

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Well, and and thank you so much for having me.

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I'm really excited to talk to another anthropologist, right and.

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Alway feels kind of dangerous, doesn't it.

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I think we are a dangerous profession.

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Yeah, we weed t shirts that say that. I think

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you know.

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So one of the things you know we're kind of

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staying up top cluty, is that your your research dives into,

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I think importantly, how Americans perceive their jobs right, perceive

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work for themselves.

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And you did a lot of really really.

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Interesting research talking with folks who are also kind of

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out of work or long term unemployed kind of figuring

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out that process for themselves. And I thought that was

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a really compelling way to frame your conversation. So I'd

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love to kind of kick off with getting a sense

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of why start there? Why do you find yourself starting

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talking with folks that are that are unemployed or kind

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of in this long term unemployment moment trying to figure

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themselves and their work out.

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Well, it was a moment following the Great Recession when

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a lot of people were unemployed and unemployed for a

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little time in the not that they wanted to be.

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They were looking for work. I was practically everybody I

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was talking to I found because they were looking for work.

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But this was the time, and it's a very different

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labor market then now, So you have to cast your

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mind back ten years or more to a time when

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the unemployment rate in southern California where I did my

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research was over ten percent, when there were three job

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seekers for every job opening, which is opposite now now

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there's less than one person looking for a job for

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every job opening. So it was a very different moment.

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That's why I was talking to people were out of work,

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because there were a lot of them. And the thing is,

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when you're out of work and for a little time

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out of work, but you want to work, it makes

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you no one usually reflect it about what work means.

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So it was a really good time to catch people,

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both because I had a well tride and because they

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were thinking a lot about what their jobs met to them,

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what they wanted in the next job, and what they

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would do differently maybe with their lives.

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Yeah, and I think that's such an important point.

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Both remember, like if we're getting a sense of like

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where we are in history, but then also reflecting of

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what that means for us today. So I think that

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is a really interesting and important distinction to think about.

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One that if we're seeing which which you know, almost

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feels crazy to think about, right, that there's there's three

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folks for every one job that might be out there,

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and now we're kind of seeing an opposite problem, right,

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that there's more work than workers. It's interesting because in

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between both of those, right, we might still see narratives

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from employers or even even folks themselves looking for work

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around the you know, we might think of it as

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a moral imperative, right that either like you know, nobody

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wants to work anymore today, which is really funny to

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look at research of that and see that people have

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been saying that since like eighteen fifty, like literally a newspapers,

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no one wants to work anymore. You know, it depends

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on what the work is though, right, which I think

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we can dig into. But then on the other side too,

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that there's more like I want to work, but I

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can't write. But there might be a slow perception that, oh,

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these people don't want to work, right from from employers

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or from folks, and so like, what's what's happening there?

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Like there is this kind of weird moral tug narrative

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happening of that one should be working but can't or

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you know, doesn't want to, but should be. Like what's

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happening here in the American psyche about like what what

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should we be doing around work?

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Yeah, and I think I think that rapid shift. It's

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taking people while to realize what's going on. So, yes,

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you keep hearing nobody wants to work anymore because you

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see these jobs that aren't filled, but they're not filed

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because there are fewer people of working age are being born.

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You know, birth rates are going down. The population is great.

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You get more people like me. You know, baby Bowers,

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I'm great too.

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You just can't tell.

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For a while, we were very restrictive with immigration right

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under Princident Trump and that close you know, that restricted

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the pool of available workers. So that was the real issue.

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There weren't enough workers. But immediately people start moralizing about it, Oh,

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the problem is people's work at Did I find that

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fascin because based on my research, I don't think that

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that's the issue at all. Hequal may not want to

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work any particular job that only pays minimum wage and

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is dirty or dangerous or has weird hours or something.

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They may want to work at a better job, but

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that doesn't mean they don't want to work at all.

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Mm.

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Yeah, And I think that's that's such an important point too,

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because and you kind of I think said a key

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idea there too, in terms of like what is the

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the ones work ethic, right, like what do I want

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to do with my time and what kind of work

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do I want to do? But you know, I think

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you also importantly point out that that there is when

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we kind of gloss over in that narrative that we

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missed this idea that it's like not that I don't

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want to work, I just don't want to work this

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kind of job or that type of labor for multiple reasons,

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which you know, and that matters, you know, because it

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isn't just a do or do not want to work?

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And this gets into you know, we can kind of

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put our theory hats on for a second two and

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I think this is helpful to think about. We have

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these these ideas of kind of laborist and post laborist

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or productivist kind of frameworks of like what we should

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be doing for work, And I found this elucidating, like

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to kind of help make sense of why we're seeing

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this disjuncture and like kind of discomfortable.

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Talking about this.

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So can you tell me a little bit about this

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in terms of like the laborist and post laboris perspectives

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and how is that shaping our discourse around.

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Well, I'm really happy to talk about it. I find

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this really fascinating because when I think you said putting

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our theory hats on, I think social theorists and also activists,

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political activists, even on the left. We often think of

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left right differences, but these are differences among progressives on

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the left. There are two very different ways of thinking

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about work and organizing organizing around it. The class, you know, Marxism,

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workers are central. You know, you've got a heroic working person,

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and that's the idea is we want a full employment economy.

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So it's organizing to make sure that everybody who is

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able to work can work at a good wage. But

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the push there is towards full employment. I think one

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thing that's uh, doctor Martin Luther King his Things March

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on Washington was on March for jobs and free He

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very much believed in this that what we want is

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for everybody to have good employment. But there's this other

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approach on the left, a post work approach, where the

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idea is work is only enriching the owners at capital.

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Our labor is only enriching the owners at capital. Why

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is there the social imperative to do that when we

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figure out a different kind of economy where be where

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people are so engaged in wage labor but much less

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of it. And so it becomes very interesting when you

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think about the future of work. Now, I don't know

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what's whether all the predictions of high levels of technological

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unemployment are going to come true, And I'd be curious

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to know from the other guests you've talked to or

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your thinking is about that. So I'm not making any

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productions whatsoever. But people circulate right and this, and but

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what's interesting is from these two perceptives, if you start

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worrying about being displaced by the robots, the laborists, the

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what to believe in the dignity of work, the importance

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of work, the centrality of it, that your social benefits,

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anything you get from society should be dependent on either

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working or not currently being able to work, maybe not

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to work in the future when they think about a

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future of robots seeking jobs. The ideas we can't let

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that hat. We need to make work a central part

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of a good life. Wage. You know, when I'm talking, well,

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we're talking to work here, we always mean wage work, right,

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lots of things we can do that require effort, but

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we're wage. Whereas the post work theorists, the post work

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organizers are saying, bring on the robots, this is great.

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This is kind of future we want is longness. Obviously

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people have to live. But you know then they would say, well,

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the government's got to figure you know, the the massive

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political revolts in our hands if the government doesn't somehow

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keep people alive. So those are two very different approaches. Now,

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I have to say, the way I talked about it

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might make me sound like on the post work side

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fixed people I walk to. I'm actually kind of in between.

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I think, you know, and this is something we can

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talk about. I don't. I'm not all workshild the most

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important thing you're doing and taking up your whole life.

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The people I talked to didn't want that, but I'm not.

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Work has no intrints to value people don't want to

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be doing it, and if they could get them, and

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if they had some other way to make a loving

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you know, they wouldn't know. The people I talked to,

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most of them wanted to go back to work and

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even talked about enjoying work, having spot at work.

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I thought that was one of the most interesting parts

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also about your research finding too, is around this idea

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of enjoyment and fun because on the one hand, I

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think it is like very helpful to have these two

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framings in terms of when we see both employees wage

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workers people and then also business owners talking about what

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the labor market needs to be and if I'm looking

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for work, orf I need to find more employees, you

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know what that is? Like it's important for us to

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understand where they're coming from, you know, you know, as

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we like exanthra politics, just be able to not say

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that they're going to be specifically this one thing to

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your point, like they're going to be either labors or

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post laborers, but they can be a blend. But those

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do help us get a sense in terms of someone's

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kind of potentially background mental contact to write their mental

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models of like why I should be looking for the

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kind of work that I'm doing and why I should

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be working this way, or you know, why my employees

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need to be thinking.

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About work a certain way.

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And this is why I think this is an important

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conversation because it helps us both get a sense of

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you know, the kind of employee side, but then also

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the the often implicit employer side too. Right, you know

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when we said the thing above in terms of nobody

252
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wants to work anymore, right, this is an anxiety often

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from the employer side, wanting to make sure that people

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will be able to fill positions. But I think, as

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you rightly point out there too, that we have to

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be able to kind of move between these positions.

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And why ethnography I think is really helpful.

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It shows us that oftentimes people will have these much

259
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more gray perspectives. It's not this, you know, it's very

260
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easy to say it's a polarize this or that, right,

261
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it's laborist or it's post laborist. But most of us

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don't live in either a theory or or like, you know,

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a perspective that's just one in one box or the

264
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other one. And also, you know, let's think about that

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in terms of the kind of in between there too,

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because I show that perspective in terms of that, you know,

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there is this desire around being able to do something

268
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in the world right, and for a lot of people

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they attached that to work doesn't have to be that though,

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and I think a lot of your interlocutors kind of

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pointed that out. So let's we can share some stories

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around that, I think, and then I'm gonna I'll put

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a pin or brack at the future workpiece till little

274
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bit later, because I do we can definitely talk through

275
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that too. I think that's a really interesting piece as well,

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because a lot of this, like you know, a lot

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of business managers and business folks were trying to.

278
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They want to say, what is the future of work right?

279
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And you know, and I did. I have talked to

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a bunch of folks about that on the show. We

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can we can kind of think through there. But the

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important point about that too is as for the pin

283
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for that later is that like a lot of these people,

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I've talked with our business owners and so we can

285
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think about that in terms of what perspective they're going

286
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to bring around technology and what work can be.

287
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But we'll come come back to this.

288
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So for now, it's like this idea, the the kind

289
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of in between this that you saw talking with folks, right,

290
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this like that I work isn't everything, but it means

291
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a lot to me, and it means different things to

292
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different folks, right, And maybe enjoyment is a way to

293
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kind of get us in there, because it's it's interesting

294
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that we don't see fun as a term that comes

295
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up a lot in terms of tell me about your work,

296
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it's fun.

297
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You know?

298
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Have I described jobs like that? I don't know, And

299
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so I think that gives us a really interesting window

300
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into different attitudes that folks have.

301
00:14:13.600 --> 00:14:14.919
So so what's happening there?

302
00:14:14.919 --> 00:14:18.000
Like, you know, fun stood out for you and White

303
00:14:18.039 --> 00:14:19.519
because it was something that we don't usually hear, like

304
00:14:19.519 --> 00:14:20.879
what it was about kind of fun?

305
00:14:21.080 --> 00:14:24.039
Funness that cut your eyes just came up over and

306
00:14:24.120 --> 00:14:26.519
over again. This was such a surprise. This is why

307
00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:30.600
I love doing anthropological research out the sort that I do,

308
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where I talk to people. We could talk about my

309
00:14:33.360 --> 00:14:36.000
ned bits, but you know, it's an approach where I'm

310
00:14:36.080 --> 00:14:39.200
just talking to people and people say things you don't expect.

311
00:14:39.279 --> 00:14:43.399
So for example, yeah, I was talking to an administrative

312
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as system. You know, we used to say secretary okay.

313
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And she was currently in a situation where she was

314
00:14:53.799 --> 00:14:56.360
just taking temporary jobs looking for a full time job.

315
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But she was taught at some of her past temp

316
00:14:59.440 --> 00:15:05.519
jobs that you had. And she talked about one where

317
00:15:05.759 --> 00:15:10.879
she was working for a company or school district where

318
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they had to take information for one kind of file

319
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and put it into an Excel spreadsheet. And she said, Wow,

320
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that was so interesting. It was so much fun. And

321
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I said, take fun work.

322
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Wow.

323
00:15:28.600 --> 00:15:32.919
And then you know, when I asked her what does

324
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work mean to you? She said, I could get lost

325
00:15:37.320 --> 00:15:41.320
creating a power point, I could get lost formatting a document.

326
00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:44.519
I could get lost figuring out an Excel street. She

327
00:15:44.919 --> 00:15:47.559
that's just fun for it. I mean, it would just

328
00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:50.480
come up. Now. You wasn't the only one. I have

329
00:15:50.559 --> 00:15:54.240
a list of my book I have, you know, I

330
00:15:54.279 --> 00:15:56.559
think at least of the I forget the figures. I

331
00:15:56.559 --> 00:15:57.919
had to go back and check. It was like a

332
00:15:58.000 --> 00:16:03.360
third or quarter of my interviewees used fun the connection

333
00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:08.039
with their work. Nothing that is expecting. It just keeps up. Now.

334
00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:11.279
I have to say, this is a very American way talking,

335
00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:14.960
and not even all Americans believe that. I think Uh,

336
00:16:15.080 --> 00:16:19.720
it fits in with the sort of very positive thinking,

337
00:16:19.960 --> 00:16:24.399
optimistic sort of chipper and it's But the thing is

338
00:16:24.759 --> 00:16:27.399
one thing they were not being sarcastic, because sometimes people

339
00:16:27.480 --> 00:16:30.600
use fun sarcastically. Oh that was fun. No, it's no.

340
00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:35.679
They were only counting cases where they were sincerely found

341
00:16:35.720 --> 00:16:38.720
it fun. Now what's interesting is what kinds of things

342
00:16:38.720 --> 00:16:40.840
did they find fun? And that kind of broke it

343
00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:44.320
down into three kinds of things that they found fun. Uh.

344
00:16:44.639 --> 00:16:51.200
The most important really was relationships with other people's relationships

345
00:16:51.240 --> 00:16:54.720
with that they're you know, with your coworkers, with your boss.

346
00:16:54.879 --> 00:16:58.679
I had one woman who was an assistant in an

347
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accounting firm, and she you know what was interesting in

348
00:17:02.799 --> 00:17:06.480
these polarized times is this young woman is Republican and

349
00:17:06.559 --> 00:17:09.319
her bosses were Democrats. But they would just joke about

350
00:17:09.359 --> 00:17:13.160
the differences between them and their politics. So they just

351
00:17:13.200 --> 00:17:20.519
were joking teas another woman, again, an executive assistant, who

352
00:17:20.759 --> 00:17:23.359
just talked about how she would like to chick in

353
00:17:23.400 --> 00:17:27.319
with her coworkers and ask how her coworker's daughter did

354
00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:31.559
in that swim meet. And this is she said, this

355
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is how we're being human. She was the kind of yeah,

356
00:17:36.359 --> 00:17:38.319
it does you have to have a best friend at work,

357
00:17:38.799 --> 00:17:45.680
but making relationships like that. Yeah, the tasks themselves are

358
00:17:45.720 --> 00:17:49.240
really important. So do you enjoy the tasks? What are

359
00:17:49.240 --> 00:17:52.319
the what are you spending your time doing? Is it interesting?

360
00:17:52.359 --> 00:17:57.240
And some people, like the administrative assistant you liked wrangling

361
00:17:57.319 --> 00:18:00.759
Excel spreadsheets for her? Was that kind of intuctual task

362
00:18:01.559 --> 00:18:04.559
for others? You know? A young man I talked to

363
00:18:05.359 --> 00:18:11.279
was doing, uh, building racecourses for extreme sports, and he said,

364
00:18:11.279 --> 00:18:14.000
when I build a mud wall that's eight feet high

365
00:18:14.039 --> 00:18:16.599
and so many feet long, that's just fun. You know,

366
00:18:16.599 --> 00:18:18.480
it's so satisfying to see that at the end of

367
00:18:18.519 --> 00:18:23.119
the day, but really enjoyed. The tasks and the fiscal

368
00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:27.400
attributes of the workplace are really important to you know,

369
00:18:27.559 --> 00:18:32.359
are just does it uh the temperature, the lighting, how

370
00:18:32.400 --> 00:18:36.039
the furnitures. Does it look pleasant? Is it, you know,

371
00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:40.079
this feel pleasant? Does it smell pleasant? When man talked

372
00:18:40.119 --> 00:18:44.680
about working in a warehouse for a candy company and

373
00:18:44.720 --> 00:18:46.400
he loved coming into the.

374
00:18:46.359 --> 00:18:48.400
Smell of chocolate, that was pretty nice.

375
00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:54.319
Yeah. But anyway, so all these things could make work

376
00:18:54.400 --> 00:19:00.640
really enjoyable. Now that doesn't mean it was. Uh. They

377
00:19:00.640 --> 00:19:04.640
were passionate about they were doing it. Didn't mean, you know,

378
00:19:04.839 --> 00:19:06.920
they wanted to spend all their time doing it. And

379
00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:08.440
this is the other thing I want to talk about.

380
00:19:09.039 --> 00:19:11.960
Can I talk about the nature of the work that

381
00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:13.079
tends to go with this?

382
00:19:14.279 --> 00:19:15.279
Yeah?

383
00:19:14.519 --> 00:19:18.640
Yeah, yeah, because the people who talked about work at

384
00:19:19.039 --> 00:19:22.079
What was really interesting is that the worst of people

385
00:19:22.119 --> 00:19:25.200
I talked to who felt they had a calling to

386
00:19:25.279 --> 00:19:27.759
be doing what they were doing, and they would use

387
00:19:27.839 --> 00:19:31.400
words like calling or passion. It wasn't you know. It

388
00:19:31.440 --> 00:19:33.359
was a slow number, but there was a certain number.

389
00:19:33.519 --> 00:19:37.359
Somebody who is a teacher, a special teacher, her sister

390
00:19:37.559 --> 00:19:41.039
had special needs, and she felt a real calling to

391
00:19:41.079 --> 00:19:45.400
be doing that kind of work. It could be all

392
00:19:45.400 --> 00:19:50.039
different kinds of things they tendedn't. They were less likely

393
00:19:50.079 --> 00:19:52.039
to use the word fun. They enjoyed it, but it

394
00:19:52.079 --> 00:19:54.720
was sort of a deeper kind of enjoyment and meaning.

395
00:19:55.480 --> 00:19:57.880
The people who were more likely to talk about fun,

396
00:19:58.119 --> 00:20:02.640
like a woman who was a real associated Adresshap this

397
00:20:02.920 --> 00:20:07.400
wasn't their work wasn't central in their identity their sense

398
00:20:07.480 --> 00:20:11.759
of purpose in life. It was much lighter and they

399
00:20:11.920 --> 00:20:15.319
how would I call a diligent nine to five work ethic?

400
00:20:15.480 --> 00:20:18.759
And this is something I really want to say to people.

401
00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:21.519
You say, some of the people who listen to this

402
00:20:21.680 --> 00:20:25.599
podcast are business owners. This is one of my most

403
00:20:25.599 --> 00:20:28.480
important points that I really want to make to business owners,

404
00:20:29.200 --> 00:20:32.839
which is we tend to think about the good employee

405
00:20:33.200 --> 00:20:36.880
as the one who is passionate about their job. It

406
00:20:37.000 --> 00:20:39.759
is going to willingly spend long hours at that job.

407
00:20:40.200 --> 00:20:41.599
You know, you could call them up in the middle

408
00:20:41.599 --> 00:20:44.160
of the night. It's in the media owns whenever. They're

409
00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:48.119
just totally into it. This is all that matters to that.

410
00:20:48.119 --> 00:20:50.640
That woman I talked to it who found so much

411
00:20:50.720 --> 00:20:56.240
fun from wrangling itself spreadsheets. She also said, when five

412
00:20:56.240 --> 00:20:59.359
o'clock comes, I want to go home. That's him. I

413
00:20:59.480 --> 00:21:01.880
enjoy going to work, but when the day's over, I

414
00:21:01.920 --> 00:21:04.240
want to go home. And she said, no, work is

415
00:21:04.359 --> 00:21:09.000
not central to my identity. I asked everybody, so there's

416
00:21:09.039 --> 00:21:13.119
this in between category that we overlook of people who

417
00:21:13.279 --> 00:21:15.559
want to do a good job. They really take pride.

418
00:21:15.640 --> 00:21:18.880
They would say when I west, is work central to

419
00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:21.680
your identity? A lot of them, a lot of people

420
00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:25.960
I talked to, would say, well, no, I wouldn't say

421
00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:29.680
that I'm a good worker. I always do a good job.

422
00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:32.920
But no, this isn't the most important thing in my life.

423
00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:36.599
My family is more important to me, or my religion

424
00:21:36.680 --> 00:21:38.680
is more important to me, God is more important. Here,

425
00:21:38.880 --> 00:21:41.880
something else is more important to me. That was the

426
00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:45.200
majority of the people I talk to. They're good workers,

427
00:21:45.400 --> 00:21:49.079
they'll do a great job, but they want to protect

428
00:21:49.119 --> 00:21:51.759
their non work too. This isn't all they care about.

429
00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:53.799
That's I think that's an important point.

430
00:21:54.160 --> 00:21:58.000
And I found that that section really fascinating too, that

431
00:21:58.599 --> 00:22:02.559
there's this discrepancy or this kind of you know, uh

432
00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:06.279
challenge between the idea of what an employer might look

433
00:22:06.279 --> 00:22:08.240
for in terms of a you know, I'm passionate about.

434
00:22:08.079 --> 00:22:10.160
The job and this this when I was thinking about

435
00:22:10.160 --> 00:22:10.400
this too.

436
00:22:10.440 --> 00:22:13.799
This It's got me thinking of the challenge oftentimes in

437
00:22:14.319 --> 00:22:16.839
built the job application process and the interview process, right

438
00:22:16.880 --> 00:22:19.000
you you kind of have to I'm just going to

439
00:22:19.039 --> 00:22:21.599
say fane or lie about how excited you are about

440
00:22:21.599 --> 00:22:24.680
a job and like in not because there is the

441
00:22:24.799 --> 00:22:28.279
actual On the one hand, we might say one of

442
00:22:28.279 --> 00:22:30.200
the reasons you're getting the job is because there's a remuneration.

443
00:22:30.240 --> 00:22:33.759
You're getting paid for your time, you know, but you

444
00:22:33.759 --> 00:22:35.920
know there's a material benefit. But then also that the

445
00:22:35.920 --> 00:22:38.880
there's also just this you know, like it's employers want

446
00:22:38.920 --> 00:22:40.720
to hear about the intangible, like oh I I'm really

447
00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:43.559
excited about like this kind of work, or I'm you know,

448
00:22:43.640 --> 00:22:44.160
I'm very.

449
00:22:44.039 --> 00:22:45.440
Passionate about blah blah blah.

450
00:22:45.440 --> 00:22:47.640
You know, that's a really interesting kind of kind of

451
00:22:47.640 --> 00:22:50.799
piece because it's like, uh, I think to your point

452
00:22:50.799 --> 00:22:54.359
of like how we can see that the the idea

453
00:22:54.480 --> 00:22:57.559
or the norm of of like passionate workers like filters

454
00:22:57.559 --> 00:22:59.680
into them what employee employers are.

455
00:22:59.519 --> 00:23:02.160
Expecting from like an application process.

456
00:23:02.200 --> 00:23:05.759
And it's like interesting that what if we thought about

457
00:23:05.759 --> 00:23:08.079
this in terms of what if we provide a good

458
00:23:08.119 --> 00:23:11.400
working environment so that passion can grow for somebody's job, right,

459
00:23:11.559 --> 00:23:14.359
or if you find enjoyment in working on Excel sheets,

460
00:23:14.440 --> 00:23:16.839
you know, or it's like something I found recently for myself.

461
00:23:16.880 --> 00:23:18.559
It's you know, I'm mean at theropologies also, but it's

462
00:23:18.599 --> 00:23:19.759
like I've.

463
00:23:19.759 --> 00:23:22.440
Been working a lot in in computer tech stuff for

464
00:23:23.480 --> 00:23:24.960
a few years now, and it's like, and I found

465
00:23:25.000 --> 00:23:27.039
that I really like nerding out over coading.

466
00:23:27.079 --> 00:23:28.400
You know, I'm not great at it, but it's like

467
00:23:28.599 --> 00:23:29.759
I'd like to be able to solve.

468
00:23:29.519 --> 00:23:32.319
A very specific or try to solve a very specific problem, right,

469
00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:34.720
And that's you know, fun, it's kind of maddening, but

470
00:23:34.839 --> 00:23:37.400
like that's not something that I would have ever said before. Like, oh,

471
00:23:37.400 --> 00:23:39.039
I also really would want to go work on coding.

472
00:23:40.240 --> 00:23:41.519
But but like that's.

473
00:23:41.359 --> 00:23:43.119
Something that I wouldn't have known if I wasn't tinkering

474
00:23:43.119 --> 00:23:45.160
with something other other kinds of other kinds of working

475
00:23:45.160 --> 00:23:47.240
out and like and I will say, also, yes, I'm

476
00:23:47.279 --> 00:23:49.480
I'm as folks may not to, but I'm I'm you know,

477
00:23:49.480 --> 00:23:50.079
self employed.

478
00:23:50.079 --> 00:23:50.839
I run my own business.

479
00:23:50.839 --> 00:23:52.799
And that's an important part of like we can talk

480
00:23:52.839 --> 00:23:54.799
about that's alveso, you know, contingent labor and that thing,

481
00:23:54.880 --> 00:23:57.079
so we can dive with there too. But like, because

482
00:23:57.079 --> 00:23:58.960
I don't have an employer that's saying, hey are you

483
00:23:59.039 --> 00:24:01.079
are you really passionate about this work? I mean, I

484
00:24:01.119 --> 00:24:02.920
guess I'm my own boss, so I can I can

485
00:24:02.960 --> 00:24:04.920
be mean to myself, I guess, you know, But that's

486
00:24:04.920 --> 00:24:06.680
that's an important point, you know, to realize that. At

487
00:24:06.680 --> 00:24:08.480
the same time, though, I also want to say, like,

488
00:24:08.680 --> 00:24:10.640
you know, I don't always stop working at five, but

489
00:24:10.640 --> 00:24:12.279
I still feel like I need to stop around five,

490
00:24:12.279 --> 00:24:13.440
and I want to because I want to go play

491
00:24:13.480 --> 00:24:15.319
with my kid and my family, and like do other

492
00:24:15.359 --> 00:24:20.200
things right, and so it's like interesting that like across categories, right,

493
00:24:20.240 --> 00:24:22.559
there's a lot of this this there's more in between

494
00:24:22.559 --> 00:24:24.039
this than we than we kind of give credit for.

495
00:24:24.640 --> 00:24:26.319
So Agreen, I think it's a really important point that

496
00:24:26.319 --> 00:24:28.640
that we do want to hammer home to to business

497
00:24:28.640 --> 00:24:30.880
owners and folks that are that are also just you know,

498
00:24:30.920 --> 00:24:33.400
at the hiring managers too, thinking about like we do

499
00:24:33.559 --> 00:24:35.519
like passionate workers like that is an important part of

500
00:24:35.559 --> 00:24:37.440
finding folks that that really want to do good work.

501
00:24:37.440 --> 00:24:40.599
But a lot of this too is recognizing that we're

502
00:24:40.640 --> 00:24:43.599
all like we're all there's much more diversity in terms

503
00:24:43.559 --> 00:24:45.160
of how we might approach what work could mean to us.

504
00:24:45.160 --> 00:24:47.039
And like just because I may not say or come

505
00:24:47.039 --> 00:24:49.680
out saying I'm super passionate about this job right now

506
00:24:49.960 --> 00:24:51.400
or you know, part of it, or that I want

507
00:24:51.440 --> 00:24:53.160
to be done at five, that I'm somehow not a

508
00:24:53.160 --> 00:24:54.880
good worker right, or that I'm I'm or that someone

509
00:24:54.880 --> 00:24:56.640
else that's like obsessed is going to be better, right,

510
00:24:57.359 --> 00:24:59.039
because I do think like what's been nice. The correl

511
00:24:59.079 --> 00:25:00.440
it on the other side is that we are seeing

512
00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:02.759
increasing conversations and I think in large part things to

513
00:25:02.799 --> 00:25:05.240
gen Z about mental health and about wellness in the

514
00:25:05.240 --> 00:25:08.279
workplace and like burnout right millennials, you know the meme

515
00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:10.440
I can't even write. It's just this like it's just

516
00:25:10.480 --> 00:25:12.039
too much right now, Like we've been asked to do

517
00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:13.680
family and work and life bla blah blah blah, and

518
00:25:13.680 --> 00:25:15.799
like you know, other generations make fun of us. But

519
00:25:15.880 --> 00:25:17.720
like there's this interesting part to to kind of think

520
00:25:17.759 --> 00:25:20.519
through what can this, what can this be? You know,

521
00:25:20.680 --> 00:25:22.400
and like how do we think about wellness and well

522
00:25:22.400 --> 00:25:26.200
being as part of that process? And you know something

523
00:25:26.240 --> 00:25:27.440
else that you wrote about too, is that we had

524
00:25:27.440 --> 00:25:30.400
seen that the interesting rise you know in terms of

525
00:25:30.440 --> 00:25:31.119
like fun at work.

526
00:25:31.200 --> 00:25:32.519
Like there's the organic.

527
00:25:32.359 --> 00:25:33.599
Kind of fun, right that you know I might get

528
00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:36.440
from work in a spreadsheet, But then there's this other

529
00:25:36.519 --> 00:25:39.519
kind of like I guess inorganic, right that you startups

530
00:25:39.559 --> 00:25:40.920
are like famous for this sort of like putting ping

531
00:25:40.960 --> 00:25:43.920
pong tables and lunch every day, and like those are nice,

532
00:25:44.200 --> 00:25:45.559
you know, but then also you think about it's kind

533
00:25:45.559 --> 00:25:47.359
of a gilded cage, right, you know, you're never that

534
00:25:47.400 --> 00:25:49.880
far from your desk at that point. So I guess,

535
00:25:50.200 --> 00:25:51.640
how did you see folks kind of talking about this

536
00:25:51.720 --> 00:25:53.319
or you know what kind of takeaways you have around

537
00:25:53.359 --> 00:25:55.880
this this idea of like we need to be able

538
00:25:55.880 --> 00:25:58.279
to put passion in its own space and it's let

539
00:25:58.279 --> 00:26:00.039
it kind of be. Sometimes it's for the works of

540
00:26:00.119 --> 00:26:02.599
this specific tasks. Sometimes it's for my family, right, and

541
00:26:02.680 --> 00:26:04.839
they can all work and be a good worker. But

542
00:26:04.880 --> 00:26:06.880
then putting that in conversation with this idea of a

543
00:26:06.960 --> 00:26:10.400
well being in wellness, right, and that you know, and

544
00:26:10.440 --> 00:26:13.000
how can I guess how can fund and wellness play together?

545
00:26:13.160 --> 00:26:14.440
Right? You know? And how do you see folks kind

546
00:26:14.480 --> 00:26:15.640
of talking about these two arenas.

547
00:26:15.720 --> 00:26:17.640
Yeah, people talked about it a lot, and I thought

548
00:26:17.680 --> 00:26:21.000
that was really interesting, and that is saying something about

549
00:26:21.039 --> 00:26:24.559
this moment the importantness of wellness and not just gendn't see.

550
00:26:24.599 --> 00:26:26.960
I mean, I was seeing this from middle aged people

551
00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:30.160
I talked too, and it was really interesting how wellness

552
00:26:30.319 --> 00:26:34.000
played into their thinking about work, because they would say

553
00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:41.559
things like they would see working on a regular basis

554
00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:44.920
as part of what's needed to stay well. They would

555
00:26:44.920 --> 00:26:47.480
say things like it's like a car if it just

556
00:26:47.519 --> 00:26:50.920
sits out there at all ruts, or they'll say I

557
00:26:51.039 --> 00:26:54.640
looked at my father and when he was lost his

558
00:26:54.759 --> 00:26:57.160
job at the steel mill and couldn't get anything else.

559
00:26:57.799 --> 00:27:01.640
Then I think that's where he started going downhill. So

560
00:27:01.720 --> 00:27:05.279
people would say that they'd see regular works and a

561
00:27:05.279 --> 00:27:08.400
good job. It's not just working at anything what the

562
00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:12.680
job is, because some jobs wear you down. You think

563
00:27:12.680 --> 00:27:17.079
we'll leave you less all over it. But the right

564
00:27:17.200 --> 00:27:19.400
kind of job they saw was part of the good life.

565
00:27:19.440 --> 00:27:23.279
But they also saw again that balance as part important

566
00:27:23.279 --> 00:27:28.720
for wellness. They stall love they so one man I

567
00:27:28.839 --> 00:27:32.000
talked to again was a supply chain strategist for a

568
00:27:32.039 --> 00:27:37.720
cosmetic company. Loved the tasks, loved to found that intellectually

569
00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:42.319
really interesting, great variety. So he would sound very enthusiastic

570
00:27:42.359 --> 00:27:45.160
when he was talking about the content of what he's doing.

571
00:27:45.960 --> 00:27:48.160
But when he talked to these hours, he said, they

572
00:27:48.200 --> 00:27:50.200
ex took me to work ten hours a day, twelve

573
00:27:50.240 --> 00:27:52.440
hours a day, and then I've got a commute, you know,

574
00:27:52.559 --> 00:27:55.559
he had an hour commute in each direction, a top

575
00:27:55.599 --> 00:27:59.359
of a twelve hour day and ten or twelve hour day,

576
00:27:59.559 --> 00:28:02.319
and he said, it just made me bitter. It just

577
00:28:02.559 --> 00:28:06.640
took out all the joy of what he intrinsically liked

578
00:28:06.640 --> 00:28:10.599
the job. But those long hours, you know, that didn't

579
00:28:10.640 --> 00:28:14.200
leave them any time to de stress to pursue anything

580
00:28:14.200 --> 00:28:17.839
else that was important to it. So there was definitely

581
00:28:17.880 --> 00:28:22.759
this discourse around wellness. Again you had the work could

582
00:28:22.759 --> 00:28:27.640
be part of that, uh, but not to an excess hmm.

583
00:28:28.200 --> 00:28:28.599
Yeah.

584
00:28:29.000 --> 00:28:32.960
And it's it's interesting too because that that like makes

585
00:28:33.000 --> 00:28:35.359
me think about the there's I had. I have not

586
00:28:35.440 --> 00:28:39.160
read Mary Wolfenstein, but you mentioned her later on in

587
00:28:39.200 --> 00:28:41.000
this idea of like fun morality, which I thought was

588
00:28:41.000 --> 00:28:43.440
a really interesting and kind of creepy idea, you know.

589
00:28:43.519 --> 00:28:45.759
But but this like you know, curious.

590
00:28:45.400 --> 00:28:49.039
American notion that like we're obligated to have fun, you know,

591
00:28:49.079 --> 00:28:52.279
both at elsewhere but also at work, right, And you know,

592
00:28:52.440 --> 00:28:53.960
I think that that filters into kind of how you're

593
00:28:53.960 --> 00:28:56.240
you're talking about we have this like chipper chipperness right

594
00:28:56.279 --> 00:28:58.079
that we think about in the American Worker, And like

595
00:28:58.640 --> 00:29:00.799
that was an interesting piece to to put in there

596
00:29:01.559 --> 00:29:03.799
for for multiple reasons. But like two that came to

597
00:29:03.839 --> 00:29:07.000
mind was one that it sounds like fun and pleasure

598
00:29:07.039 --> 00:29:09.400
are things that we that don't jive well with this

599
00:29:09.799 --> 00:29:11.240
we haven't talked about yet, but we will now. Like

600
00:29:11.279 --> 00:29:13.279
the Puritan work ethic, right, this idea that like a

601
00:29:13.319 --> 00:29:16.200
lot of this is based on like seriousness and like

602
00:29:16.200 --> 00:29:18.119
there's there's a higher calling to your work, right, and

603
00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:19.440
that's why we do what we do. And this is

604
00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:20.759
why we talk about a calling as one of the

605
00:29:20.799 --> 00:29:23.440
highest forms of work in typical like you know, work theory,

606
00:29:25.160 --> 00:29:26.839
and and I think that filters into a lot of

607
00:29:26.839 --> 00:29:28.480
it and how how people think about work, whether they

608
00:29:28.519 --> 00:29:30.559
like consciously say yes, this is a you know, what

609
00:29:30.640 --> 00:29:33.720
I should be doing, but then like, uh, but in

610
00:29:33.759 --> 00:29:35.920
this case, like Wolfenstein says, and that you're pointing out

611
00:29:35.960 --> 00:29:38.480
to is that it's like fun morality is not about

612
00:29:38.480 --> 00:29:40.839
this idea that like over doing the opposite of like

613
00:29:40.880 --> 00:29:42.519
this the serious kind of calling out work. But it's

614
00:29:42.519 --> 00:29:45.799
actually like a not evolved but just like an adapted

615
00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:48.759
form of like this still kind of puritanical way that

616
00:29:48.759 --> 00:29:51.599
we should be working. And there's a challenge and the

617
00:29:51.640 --> 00:29:53.839
problem with that too, right that you point out that

618
00:29:53.920 --> 00:29:56.440
I want to break down because it's like this interesting

619
00:29:56.480 --> 00:30:00.319
idea that there's a diffuseness to that pleasure. Right, this

620
00:30:00.359 --> 00:30:02.279
is why it's okay, it's not like a super intense

621
00:30:02.279 --> 00:30:04.359
moment of pleasure, but that like it's spread out across

622
00:30:04.359 --> 00:30:06.640
work tasks and days, and so I don't know, this

623
00:30:06.440 --> 00:30:08.880
is this struck me as a really interesting and curious

624
00:30:09.880 --> 00:30:11.680
piece to think with in terms of like we do

625
00:30:13.000 --> 00:30:15.000
talk about the rise of need for fun and things

626
00:30:15.039 --> 00:30:16.920
like that, but there's these kind of interesting challenge points

627
00:30:16.920 --> 00:30:20.240
that like, you know, are we are we actually helping

628
00:30:20.240 --> 00:30:22.240
ourselves get out of the box and really think about

629
00:30:23.039 --> 00:30:24.759
what it means to say like let's let's have fun.

630
00:30:24.799 --> 00:30:26.000
I have work, and I think that's what your work

631
00:30:26.039 --> 00:30:27.480
does a good job of is helping us break down

632
00:30:27.519 --> 00:30:29.640
both the diversity of what what like small pleasures at

633
00:30:29.680 --> 00:30:32.279
work can be, but then also recognizing that like when

634
00:30:32.279 --> 00:30:34.440
an employer says we're going to have a picnic together

635
00:30:34.519 --> 00:30:36.240
or we're going to have a fun event, and like

636
00:30:36.559 --> 00:30:39.200
this kind of mandated fun or the kind of fun

637
00:30:39.279 --> 00:30:43.039
morality is this really tricky thing? Because I don't know you,

638
00:30:43.039 --> 00:30:44.640
but I've definitely had those things where like, you know,

639
00:30:44.720 --> 00:30:46.880
if you're working with someone or client or you have

640
00:30:46.920 --> 00:30:48.359
a boss and like they're like, hey, we're gonna have

641
00:30:48.359 --> 00:30:50.240
our you know, annual meeting, or like let's all get

642
00:30:50.240 --> 00:30:51.759
together and have an icebreak, and you're like, oh man,

643
00:30:53.319 --> 00:30:55.119
you know, it feels so forced.

644
00:30:54.920 --> 00:30:58.799
Right, yeah, And it might kind of if it's after hours,

645
00:30:58.799 --> 00:31:02.599
if I put into your free Also people, I mean,

646
00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:05.119
I know some young people, you know who sense Some

647
00:31:05.279 --> 00:31:07.599
of my students have said things like, well, I finan

648
00:31:07.680 --> 00:31:09.640
to take a job in a new city. I want

649
00:31:09.720 --> 00:31:12.160
the kind of job where people getting together after work

650
00:31:12.240 --> 00:31:15.119
is that's how all people. Yeah, that's fine, that's really fine.

651
00:31:15.160 --> 00:31:19.599
So yes, be boor different. But you know, among my interviees,

652
00:31:20.079 --> 00:31:24.680
being forced to attend, you know, social events after hours

653
00:31:25.240 --> 00:31:27.759
could be a real imposition. And you know, one of

654
00:31:27.799 --> 00:31:30.759
the women I talked to lost her job because she

655
00:31:31.039 --> 00:31:33.680
had a two year old and a one year old.

656
00:31:33.799 --> 00:31:36.680
She wanted to be home with them, but she was

657
00:31:36.680 --> 00:31:39.680
in HR and she was expected to attend these DHR

658
00:31:39.759 --> 00:31:43.640
events after hours and she didn't want to do it.

659
00:31:43.799 --> 00:31:48.480
So yeah, so that kind of mandated fun. Yeah, now,

660
00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:51.640
that's one person I talked to liked it, But most

661
00:31:51.640 --> 00:31:54.039
people did not like it. When they talked about fun

662
00:31:54.119 --> 00:31:57.039
at work, that's not what they were talking about. Was

663
00:31:57.079 --> 00:32:00.759
it things that organically arose just from the nature of

664
00:32:00.799 --> 00:32:05.720
the tasks, pleasant social interactions with co workers, the nature

665
00:32:05.759 --> 00:32:09.720
of the workplace. But I also wanted to get into this,

666
00:32:10.400 --> 00:32:14.839
and you brought up this idea that there I've seen

667
00:32:14.960 --> 00:32:19.960
occupational psychologists will talk about the highest approach being seeing

668
00:32:19.960 --> 00:32:24.039
your work as a cooling. I really take issue with

669
00:32:24.200 --> 00:32:29.559
that because I think there's sort of a built in

670
00:32:30.119 --> 00:32:34.960
value judgment there which we have to help just try

671
00:32:35.039 --> 00:32:37.640
and understand other people's values. We're trying not to puz

672
00:32:37.680 --> 00:32:39.839
our own. And the value judgment I see being a

673
00:32:39.880 --> 00:32:44.480
policier is you have to feel you're doing good with

674
00:32:44.759 --> 00:32:47.720
your work. You have to feel it's deeply meaningful. You

675
00:32:47.720 --> 00:32:49.960
have to feel it's making you a better person and

676
00:32:49.960 --> 00:32:53.880
making the world a better person. Yes, people I talked

677
00:32:53.880 --> 00:32:57.440
to did feel that they were doing that, and sometimes

678
00:32:57.440 --> 00:33:02.680
in very unexpected ways, you know. But but there was

679
00:33:02.720 --> 00:33:05.880
this other category we don't recognize. We sort of socially,

680
00:33:06.000 --> 00:33:09.359
we culturally recognize seeing your work as appalling or as

681
00:33:09.400 --> 00:33:14.440
a passion, and we call we recognize the opposite extreme

682
00:33:14.680 --> 00:33:19.480
of work is work. It's just a job. We also recognize,

683
00:33:19.640 --> 00:33:21.920
you know, get a good job, you know that'll pay well,

684
00:33:21.920 --> 00:33:24.759
and so forth. We recognize all those pasts. Well, we

685
00:33:24.799 --> 00:33:26.880
don't recognize it. Again, there's another one of these in

686
00:33:26.960 --> 00:33:31.079
between categories that I call the good enough occupation. That

687
00:33:31.119 --> 00:33:36.599
there was another Journalistsu's discovered the same thing with his interviews. Uh,

688
00:33:36.640 --> 00:33:40.720
but yeah, this idea I want to I don't want

689
00:33:40.799 --> 00:33:44.359
just any occupation. I want something that will not run

690
00:33:44.400 --> 00:33:47.279
contrary to my values. I want something that'll be interesting,

691
00:33:48.039 --> 00:33:52.640
but it doesn't have to be something that's necessarily making

692
00:33:52.680 --> 00:33:56.000
the whole world a better place. Maybe I just you know,

693
00:33:56.880 --> 00:34:01.720
I'm doing a good job there to help this organization

694
00:34:02.000 --> 00:34:08.800
achieve its goals. I enjoy it again. You know, there's

695
00:34:08.840 --> 00:34:11.760
this kind of in between category that's not recognized. It

696
00:34:11.800 --> 00:34:15.039
doesn't have to be a calling to be to give

697
00:34:15.079 --> 00:34:17.760
you a very satisfying thing to do with your life

698
00:34:17.800 --> 00:34:19.199
and way to make money, and.

699
00:34:19.480 --> 00:34:23.239
That runs, you know, somewhat contrary to the every single

700
00:34:23.440 --> 00:34:26.000
like you know, commencement speech we hear at college, right,

701
00:34:26.760 --> 00:34:28.760
Which is funny because it's like, on the one hand,

702
00:34:28.760 --> 00:34:30.519
we want to be inspired to do to do things

703
00:34:30.559 --> 00:34:32.760
in life, and that's you know, one of the great

704
00:34:32.840 --> 00:34:34.519
roles of universities.

705
00:34:33.960 --> 00:34:34.280
I think.

706
00:34:34.960 --> 00:34:36.880
But then it's an interesting point that like, but most

707
00:34:36.920 --> 00:34:40.079
of us you know, don't go either either know what

708
00:34:40.119 --> 00:34:41.599
our calling is or ever. And like most of us,

709
00:34:41.599 --> 00:34:44.559
I think to anybody after forty is like, you know what,

710
00:34:44.880 --> 00:34:46.840
I always talked about that idea, but now it's like, yeah,

711
00:34:46.840 --> 00:34:48.360
but I think I've ultimately just found a good enough

712
00:34:48.440 --> 00:34:50.039
job and I'm actually totally fine with that, you know,

713
00:34:50.079 --> 00:34:52.079
And that's and it's great because a I can to

714
00:34:52.159 --> 00:34:54.920
leave when I get home, or I found unexpected.

715
00:34:54.400 --> 00:34:55.840
Pleasure in the kind of work that I'm doing, or

716
00:34:55.840 --> 00:34:56.280
whatever it is.

717
00:34:56.320 --> 00:34:56.440
You know.

718
00:34:56.480 --> 00:34:58.840
It's like it's this funny idea that we we have,

719
00:34:59.039 --> 00:35:01.599
like we sort of tell one myth at earlier points

720
00:35:01.639 --> 00:35:03.039
in our lives and then like as we as we

721
00:35:03.480 --> 00:35:05.039
as we learn more, I guess we're like kind of

722
00:35:05.039 --> 00:35:07.239
see more than we kind of change some of that narrative.

723
00:35:07.239 --> 00:35:09.199
And obviously it doesn't have to be you know, only linear,

724
00:35:09.239 --> 00:35:12.480
but I thought this was a really really compelling idea too,

725
00:35:12.639 --> 00:35:15.280
that a lot of the work that people find and

726
00:35:15.559 --> 00:35:18.039
is ultimately like on one end, like anthropologist we know too,

727
00:35:18.039 --> 00:35:19.960
it's like people just make do with what they what

728
00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:21.960
they can in the circumstances that they're given. Like and

729
00:35:22.280 --> 00:35:23.719
it's not just that we you know, we we I know,

730
00:35:23.760 --> 00:35:25.199
we make them. We have agency too, but it's just

731
00:35:25.199 --> 00:35:28.639
like when there's you know, societal constraints or agentave constraints

732
00:35:28.639 --> 00:35:31.000
in terms of what we can do and structures kind

733
00:35:31.039 --> 00:35:33.760
of shaping things, then we often will do what we

734
00:35:33.760 --> 00:35:35.559
can to make the best in those scenarios, and like

735
00:35:36.159 --> 00:35:37.800
and the one in the goodnot occupation kind helps us

736
00:35:37.840 --> 00:35:40.719
point to that idea, and it also busts this this

737
00:35:40.920 --> 00:35:42.639
you know, I agree this value judgment that like the

738
00:35:42.760 --> 00:35:44.199
calling is really what you want to go for. And

739
00:35:44.199 --> 00:35:46.199
it's like, yes, I think passion is a nice thing

740
00:35:46.239 --> 00:35:47.559
to have in our lives, and many of us can

741
00:35:47.559 --> 00:35:49.639
find it, but it's like more that we're we're kind

742
00:35:49.639 --> 00:35:51.800
of also sold the narrative that that should be around

743
00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:53.280
your work, right like this there should be a kind

744
00:35:53.320 --> 00:35:55.400
of thing that you should be doing, and it's like, uh,

745
00:35:55.519 --> 00:35:58.360
maybe you know, but you know when a lot of

746
00:35:58.440 --> 00:36:00.880
us either can't do that, you know, and or that's

747
00:36:00.880 --> 00:36:03.599
not what we'less you're looking for. It's like it's interesting

748
00:36:03.639 --> 00:36:06.639
because like again this this tension of like, you know,

749
00:36:06.679 --> 00:36:08.360
what am I passion about? What what's like getting the

750
00:36:08.360 --> 00:36:10.599
intensity of my time and in my might want to

751
00:36:10.719 --> 00:36:13.679
want to do in the world versus like both helping

752
00:36:13.719 --> 00:36:15.760
me either get by or like kind of find work.

753
00:36:16.239 --> 00:36:20.119
You also spoke to like something else that that some

754
00:36:20.159 --> 00:36:22.559
of your interlocutors were talking about in terms of this

755
00:36:22.679 --> 00:36:24.760
idea of like the audition around wanting to move up

756
00:36:24.760 --> 00:36:26.719
in one's career or two like that. Sometimes it can

757
00:36:26.760 --> 00:36:28.639
be about like I either love the challenge of kind

758
00:36:28.639 --> 00:36:30.679
of like working on a big project and getting kind

759
00:36:30.679 --> 00:36:32.440
of move up there, like having this kind of ambition

760
00:36:32.519 --> 00:36:34.400
to do more. But sometimes it was also just this

761
00:36:34.480 --> 00:36:36.400
of like hey, I'm just actually happy to help my

762
00:36:36.440 --> 00:36:39.000
firm do better, right, or helping my improve my my

763
00:36:39.039 --> 00:36:42.639
colleagues day or something, And like I also kind of

764
00:36:42.639 --> 00:36:45.199
felt an echo here too. I know we've been teasing

765
00:36:45.239 --> 00:36:47.960
like the Protestant work ethic idea, but like I felt

766
00:36:47.960 --> 00:36:49.920
an echo in this idea too, of like an asceticism

767
00:36:49.960 --> 00:36:52.559
of like not wanting to like want too much, right,

768
00:36:52.599 --> 00:36:54.199
like you don't want to be over the ambitious because

769
00:36:54.199 --> 00:36:56.119
then also is kind of like a you know, points

770
00:36:56.079 --> 00:36:59.599
towards a sinful idea, I suppose, which is interesting as well,

771
00:36:59.840 --> 00:37:01.559
that you know, I don't think people kind of came

772
00:37:01.599 --> 00:37:04.119
out and said that specifically, but like this idea of

773
00:37:04.119 --> 00:37:05.880
like what's the what's the right way to think about, like.

774
00:37:05.880 --> 00:37:07.239
What do I enjoy? How do I want to move

775
00:37:07.320 --> 00:37:08.440
up in a company? What does that mean?

776
00:37:08.480 --> 00:37:10.320
For ambition doesn't mean too much too little, you know,

777
00:37:10.360 --> 00:37:12.320
and I am I doing everything right. So like a

778
00:37:12.320 --> 00:37:13.800
lot of this like there's just like this, you know,

779
00:37:13.840 --> 00:37:15.760
I don't know, just like this ambient sponge of like

780
00:37:16.519 --> 00:37:19.880
you know, this this like work ethic that is pervading

781
00:37:19.920 --> 00:37:24.000
a lot of the narrative that both people just break

782
00:37:24.519 --> 00:37:26.360
because of how they're actually living their lives. But then

783
00:37:26.360 --> 00:37:28.639
it's like still there, you know, and like this interesting

784
00:37:28.719 --> 00:37:32.280
like kind of substrate. But I think also, so I

785
00:37:32.280 --> 00:37:33.719
guess let's say a little bit about I keep talking

786
00:37:33.719 --> 00:37:34.920
about it, so like it's a little bit like what

787
00:37:35.000 --> 00:37:36.519
is what is this like Puritan work ethic, which I

788
00:37:36.599 --> 00:37:38.519
know you I think you correctly change the term of

789
00:37:38.519 --> 00:37:42.119
it and not call it that it it like this

790
00:37:42.199 --> 00:37:44.880
has been pervasive, And I do want to bucket this

791
00:37:44.920 --> 00:37:46.639
by saying that one thing we've been doing so far

792
00:37:46.679 --> 00:37:49.519
on our conversation, which is important, is like pointing out

793
00:37:49.519 --> 00:37:52.199
also the specificities of people's things are doing at work right,

794
00:37:52.280 --> 00:37:54.079
And so a lot of this can be like again

795
00:37:54.519 --> 00:37:57.599
a big theory like this this this from Max Faper,

796
00:37:57.639 --> 00:38:01.280
we'll talk about as work the abstract, right, and so

797
00:38:01.599 --> 00:38:03.079
we are talking about a little bit about that, but

798
00:38:03.119 --> 00:38:04.800
like also a lot of what we're saying here so far,

799
00:38:05.679 --> 00:38:06.920
and your point out in the book too, is that

800
00:38:07.000 --> 00:38:09.800
like specificity matters, right, Like context is going to make

801
00:38:09.800 --> 00:38:12.519
a huge difference of like what kind of work matters

802
00:38:12.599 --> 00:38:14.519
and when and what am I doing in the specific tasks,

803
00:38:14.639 --> 00:38:16.079
you know, and like what's going to make something fun

804
00:38:16.920 --> 00:38:17.760
makes a huge difference.

805
00:38:17.800 --> 00:38:17.920
Right.

806
00:38:17.960 --> 00:38:19.639
So so I'll just brock it and we're we're going

807
00:38:19.679 --> 00:38:21.519
to zoom up and zoom back down, right, And so

808
00:38:21.559 --> 00:38:24.760
we've been kind of in this specificity and so this

809
00:38:24.840 --> 00:38:26.239
is a bigger kind of theory to help us think

810
00:38:26.239 --> 00:38:29.679
about what's been shaping the broader narrative, right, And so

811
00:38:29.679 --> 00:38:31.719
this is the things we've been saying about asceticism and

812
00:38:31.760 --> 00:38:34.480
pleasure and fun and like that make us rethink, you know,

813
00:38:34.760 --> 00:38:37.880
passionate and calling these pieces are fitting into this, like

814
00:38:37.920 --> 00:38:40.719
they're kind of speaking from this this broader bucket of

815
00:38:41.119 --> 00:38:42.559
the work at the Purity work ethic.

816
00:38:42.639 --> 00:38:44.199
But I'll let you, I'll stop talking in the.

817
00:38:45.719 --> 00:38:48.679
What's happening here, you know, Well, maybe it would help

818
00:38:48.719 --> 00:38:52.679
at this point to explain what did Vapor mean by

819
00:38:52.760 --> 00:38:55.079
the purity work ethic, and that we can kind of

820
00:38:55.119 --> 00:38:55.639
go from there.

821
00:38:55.760 --> 00:38:58.400
Is that? So yeah, Okay, sounds great.

822
00:38:58.719 --> 00:39:04.239
So, first of all, what Vapor was really interested in

823
00:39:04.599 --> 00:39:07.320
was kind of a modern What he saw is a

824
00:39:07.360 --> 00:39:11.840
real shift that happened with modernity in Europe, a shift

825
00:39:12.000 --> 00:39:17.800
away from just working to live to living to work,

826
00:39:18.440 --> 00:39:25.199
and he he sees as decisive and not a good thing. Okay,

827
00:39:25.679 --> 00:39:29.639
he was a real critic of this. His theory and

828
00:39:29.679 --> 00:39:34.480
it's controversial, not everybody believes him, was that it happened

829
00:39:36.280 --> 00:39:39.719
two steps. There were two steps in the development of Protestantism.

830
00:39:40.320 --> 00:39:46.800
The first was Luther's idea that you can be virtuous

831
00:39:46.840 --> 00:39:50.360
in the eyes of God, not just by becoming a

832
00:39:50.400 --> 00:39:53.800
priest or at none, devoting yourself to a religious vocation,

833
00:39:54.519 --> 00:39:59.920
but doing whatever your worldly tasks are and doing them well.

834
00:40:00.440 --> 00:40:05.800
So work, just doing your work well is what makes

835
00:40:05.800 --> 00:40:08.599
you a good person in God's eyes. That was one shit.

836
00:40:09.280 --> 00:40:13.119
But then he saw the real shift for Vapor came

837
00:40:13.559 --> 00:40:18.840
with a development with calvin Calvinism is you know, Puritanism

838
00:40:18.880 --> 00:40:23.280
is a form of Calvinism where the pure chans were

839
00:40:23.320 --> 00:40:26.199
worried about am I going to be saved? There's no

840
00:40:26.280 --> 00:40:28.360
way for sure to know that I'm going to be saved.

841
00:40:29.239 --> 00:40:33.840
But if I'm very successful in my projects, it must

842
00:40:33.920 --> 00:40:36.559
be a sign that God has found favor with me,

843
00:40:36.679 --> 00:40:40.280
and I will be sick. And there was alts of

844
00:40:40.320 --> 00:40:44.159
this idea. You have to labor constantly for God in

845
00:40:44.199 --> 00:40:46.559
this world. You can rest all you want after you

846
00:40:46.639 --> 00:40:52.440
die in the next life. Okay, So it was an

847
00:40:52.480 --> 00:40:56.480
approach to tie spend all your time working in a

848
00:40:56.480 --> 00:41:00.000
constant anxiety. Am I successful enough? That my good enough?

849
00:41:00.599 --> 00:41:05.000
And it kind of led to this work becoming central

850
00:41:05.079 --> 00:41:09.760
to people's identity and purpose and meaning. And he said

851
00:41:09.800 --> 00:41:11.760
the religious part of it dropped out. He said, it

852
00:41:11.840 --> 00:41:14.960
dropped that very quickly or ready by the seventeen hundreds.

853
00:41:15.079 --> 00:41:20.480
That was not so important, but that centrality of work,

854
00:41:21.079 --> 00:41:25.119
just living to work, even if you had enough money

855
00:41:25.159 --> 00:41:28.239
to meet your needs. You know, it wasn't about making

856
00:41:28.239 --> 00:41:30.679
the money to live well, because, as you said, there

857
00:41:30.760 --> 00:41:33.679
was this ascetic element to it. You weren't you know,

858
00:41:33.800 --> 00:41:36.440
it was opposed to a conspicuous conception. You weren't doing

859
00:41:36.480 --> 00:41:40.280
it for the money. You're just doing it on this

860
00:41:40.480 --> 00:41:45.159
irrational desire to be highly successful. Keep working, work it

861
00:41:45.199 --> 00:41:48.199
because means so much to you, and because you feel

862
00:41:48.199 --> 00:41:52.320
guilty if you're not being producted. I see productivity and

863
00:41:52.480 --> 00:41:55.039
central here and so I like to call it a

864
00:41:55.079 --> 00:41:58.559
productivist work ethic. Protestant makes you think, oh, this only

865
00:41:58.559 --> 00:42:02.159
applies to Protestants, you know, And even Vapor is saying, no,

866
00:42:02.599 --> 00:42:05.079
you know, the religious elements dropping out. This isn't just

867
00:42:05.119 --> 00:42:07.880
apply to protest it. So I'd rather say it productive

868
00:42:07.880 --> 00:42:14.320
this work now. Yeah, so Vapor felt. Now Vapor was

869
00:42:14.360 --> 00:42:17.599
writing at the beginning of the twentiethcentric all right, and

870
00:42:17.639 --> 00:42:20.880
he already felt at that point that consumerism had become

871
00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:25.079
much more important, that industrial capitalism was so well established.

872
00:42:25.079 --> 00:42:28.519
I didn't care what people motivated people. They had to

873
00:42:28.599 --> 00:42:31.599
kind of go along with the cysts. So that's what

874
00:42:31.679 --> 00:42:35.480
Vapors say. And there's a lot of truth to those

875
00:42:35.519 --> 00:42:39.480
two points. What I think he misses, though, is he

876
00:42:39.519 --> 00:42:43.719
misses a couple of things. He still sees this centrality

877
00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:47.840
of this living to work ethic. That he's focusing just

878
00:42:48.239 --> 00:42:51.519
again on your entrepreneurs, your people who were into the

879
00:42:51.519 --> 00:42:58.159
household culture, not that people again Centric nine, but there

880
00:42:58.159 --> 00:43:02.679
were entrepreneurs then, yes, yeah, that those are the types

881
00:43:02.719 --> 00:43:06.039
that fascinated him, The types of just kept pouring their

882
00:43:06.119 --> 00:43:09.880
time into their business. Well they earned the profits from

883
00:43:09.880 --> 00:43:12.119
the business, of course, they bought the time into the business.

884
00:43:12.840 --> 00:43:15.119
What about the people who work for them? You know,

885
00:43:15.440 --> 00:43:18.400
they have a different they're enough, you know, earning something

886
00:43:18.480 --> 00:43:22.519
from the profits at the Yeah, okay, they're in a

887
00:43:22.559 --> 00:43:26.320
different position. And Vapor doesn't spend enough time thinking about

888
00:43:26.519 --> 00:43:29.119
ordinary workers, the sort of people I talked to, and

889
00:43:29.159 --> 00:43:33.239
they're attcude about it, and so you kind of come

890
00:43:33.320 --> 00:43:35.360
out of this thinking, well, the only way to think

891
00:43:35.360 --> 00:43:38.000
about it is you know, and he said it was

892
00:43:38.039 --> 00:43:40.960
particularly prevalent in the United States. He's German. Okay, so

893
00:43:41.000 --> 00:43:43.119
he's looking over the United States. It's saying, what's with

894
00:43:43.199 --> 00:43:50.519
these weird Americans? You know. It was so because he

895
00:43:50.599 --> 00:43:52.719
traveled to the US and he said, ah, yeah, this

896
00:43:52.840 --> 00:43:55.320
is a strange these businessmen and just think of nothing

897
00:43:55.360 --> 00:43:59.800
except business. But but yeah, the world, these ordinary workers

898
00:43:59.840 --> 00:44:01.679
who have lots of other things to think about. So

899
00:44:01.719 --> 00:44:04.679
that was one problem with what he talked about. The

900
00:44:04.679 --> 00:44:08.559
other problem is, and it is he still focuses on

901
00:44:08.599 --> 00:44:15.239
this very grim this very moralistic attitude. And yes, there

902
00:44:15.400 --> 00:44:18.639
definitely is a moralistic attitude. And I did find that

903
00:44:18.719 --> 00:44:20.960
even people had what I call it the diligent nine

904
00:44:21.000 --> 00:44:24.360
to five work ethic. They felt one should be a

905
00:44:24.400 --> 00:44:27.679
productive worker. They did see a morality in that they

906
00:44:27.679 --> 00:44:30.559
did look down on people they thought were lazy. Absolutely,

907
00:44:31.599 --> 00:44:35.760
but again that's separate from seeing work as everything, making

908
00:44:35.800 --> 00:44:38.679
it central to your identity. Wanted to work all the time. Now, no,

909
00:44:39.440 --> 00:44:42.480
that's a different thing. And then this whole fun element

910
00:44:42.880 --> 00:44:47.719
that he donic element of pleasure boy, that doesn't enter

911
00:44:47.800 --> 00:44:52.320
into Vapor's description at all, and out finding it both

912
00:44:52.400 --> 00:44:54.079
with the people who did I did talk to some

913
00:44:54.119 --> 00:44:56.960
people who lived to work, and you hinted that then

914
00:44:57.079 --> 00:44:59.880
a little bit. Some of them took real pleasure in

915
00:45:00.079 --> 00:45:03.719
meeting challenging goals. It wasn't just I need to do this,

916
00:45:03.880 --> 00:45:08.480
I'm rationally driven, pathologically driven to do it. It was

917
00:45:08.559 --> 00:45:11.480
fun for them to meet a challenging goal. They really

918
00:45:11.559 --> 00:45:14.280
enjoyed it. And then there were also the pep I

919
00:45:14.360 --> 00:45:16.920
talked to who didn't live to work, who wanted to

920
00:45:16.960 --> 00:45:19.559
leave at five o'clock but took fun. As I said

921
00:45:19.760 --> 00:45:22.960
in they could really enjoy the tasks or enjoy their coworkers.

922
00:45:23.280 --> 00:45:25.760
That will fund and elements totally messy.

923
00:45:25.960 --> 00:45:29.159
Vapor like that'd be an odd third subtitle of his book,

924
00:45:29.199 --> 00:45:32.519
right Rid of Capitalism and the Joy of Unners.

925
00:45:32.679 --> 00:45:36.239
You know, Yeah, the pleasure really kept coming up a

926
00:45:36.280 --> 00:45:36.639
lot my.

927
00:45:36.719 --> 00:45:40.159
Inner dudes, which I think, I think is fascinating, right,

928
00:45:40.199 --> 00:45:42.719
and I think it's an important It's an important point because, like,

929
00:45:43.280 --> 00:45:45.639
you know, part of the interesting piece in terms of

930
00:45:45.679 --> 00:45:49.320
like both the framing of your work too is like, well,

931
00:45:49.519 --> 00:45:51.440
you know, and one had like why was vapor helpful

932
00:45:51.480 --> 00:45:53.480
to like think about? Like, because I agree, like we

933
00:45:53.480 --> 00:45:55.039
need to push back on his framework, you know, like

934
00:45:55.320 --> 00:45:57.400
why was why was it helpful for you in organizing

935
00:45:57.960 --> 00:45:58.480
this thinking?

936
00:45:58.559 --> 00:45:58.719
Right?

937
00:45:58.960 --> 00:46:00.360
And like did you I guess, did you go into

938
00:46:00.360 --> 00:46:04.480
the interviews having Aaberian kind of viewpointer like and obviously

939
00:46:04.519 --> 00:46:06.679
we already have some problems with it, but like or

940
00:46:06.719 --> 00:46:08.119
did it? Did it kind of come up as like, oh,

941
00:46:08.159 --> 00:46:10.039
this is an interesting foil to what people are talking

942
00:46:10.079 --> 00:46:11.719
about with their actual experiences around work.

943
00:46:11.800 --> 00:46:14.880
Oh that's so interesting. I mean I did ask everybody,

944
00:46:15.320 --> 00:46:18.199
would you say that work is central to your identity? No,

945
00:46:18.599 --> 00:46:22.679
that was there and just baked into my research as something.

946
00:46:22.920 --> 00:46:25.840
And I don't think I had an expectation about what

947
00:46:25.880 --> 00:46:30.039
they would say. I had already guess this isn't the

948
00:46:30.079 --> 00:46:33.760
first project I've done around work. Ah So, but my

949
00:46:33.840 --> 00:46:36.960
dissertation research, which was back in the eighties, I talked

950
00:46:36.960 --> 00:46:40.000
to factory workers and I felt something very similar that

951
00:46:40.199 --> 00:46:44.119
many of these factory workers had been offered promotions into

952
00:46:44.199 --> 00:46:47.679
management and turned them down because they knew that once

953
00:46:47.719 --> 00:46:50.760
they were in management, their time was out their own.

954
00:46:50.880 --> 00:46:53.599
They could be cold at any hour to come into

955
00:46:53.639 --> 00:46:56.440
this It was a chemical factory come in six of problem,

956
00:46:56.519 --> 00:47:00.719
and they wanted to be home. So I already seen

957
00:47:00.719 --> 00:47:05.519
in the nineteen eighties that there was this other way

958
00:47:05.519 --> 00:47:07.519
of thinking about it. So yeah, so I was trying

959
00:47:07.599 --> 00:47:12.119
to kind of push back the framework that all Americans,

960
00:47:12.719 --> 00:47:16.159
you know, are lived to work and our workaholics and

961
00:47:16.239 --> 00:47:17.599
don't care about anything else.

962
00:47:19.360 --> 00:47:19.960
It's funny too.

963
00:47:20.400 --> 00:47:22.679
We've also seen right, like the lionization of like the

964
00:47:22.719 --> 00:47:25.400
workaholic as an idea, which is funny because no one's like, yeah, alcoholics, right,

965
00:47:25.440 --> 00:47:27.639
you know, which is where it comes from. But it's

966
00:47:27.679 --> 00:47:30.119
just this funny idea that like there's there's a fetichization

967
00:47:30.199 --> 00:47:32.039
almost of what labor isn't.

968
00:47:31.800 --> 00:47:33.079
And can be, you know.

969
00:47:33.480 --> 00:47:35.320
And I think something else that I think could be

970
00:47:35.400 --> 00:47:37.000
really helpful to think about too, like both I mean

971
00:47:37.079 --> 00:47:39.159
both for our anthelitical conversation, but I think also again

972
00:47:39.199 --> 00:47:42.079
to think with with folks working in business that are

973
00:47:42.079 --> 00:47:43.880
trying to figure out both what anthropology can do but

974
00:47:44.039 --> 00:47:46.519
also what this specific conversation around work can do it

975
00:47:46.559 --> 00:47:48.000
and what your your book can help them think about.

976
00:47:48.079 --> 00:47:50.880
Is Like, even your methodology too, actually is really I

977
00:47:50.880 --> 00:47:52.920
think it fruitful because you take kind of a cognitive

978
00:47:52.920 --> 00:47:57.920
psychological approach and psycho psychological anthropological approach, and like what

979
00:47:57.960 --> 00:47:59.719
that means typically, right, is that you're dealing with an

980
00:47:59.760 --> 00:48:02.599
indie visual. You're talking with individuals, and I mean, you know,

981
00:48:02.599 --> 00:48:05.119
a broader culture. Anthropology will talk individuals too, but like

982
00:48:05.159 --> 00:48:06.480
it will then take kind of build a kind of

983
00:48:06.519 --> 00:48:09.159
team group perspective, right, And so there's an interesting distinction

984
00:48:09.239 --> 00:48:11.280
there of like why are we talking to individuals and

985
00:48:11.320 --> 00:48:14.440
then focusing premising on them rather than saying, here's the

986
00:48:14.480 --> 00:48:15.320
broad story of.

987
00:48:15.239 --> 00:48:17.679
What what this like group is doing. And so I'm

988
00:48:17.760 --> 00:48:18.039
kind of.

989
00:48:17.960 --> 00:48:21.440
Curious from your perspective, like how that you know, you

990
00:48:21.440 --> 00:48:23.360
feel like that helps your perspective what you're looking at

991
00:48:23.400 --> 00:48:25.119
and getting a sense of of what does work mean?

992
00:48:25.480 --> 00:48:27.519
Especially because you know, coming away from this, like we're

993
00:48:27.519 --> 00:48:30.039
seeing that there's just a ton more great area of

994
00:48:30.039 --> 00:48:32.320
what work means to people, and like this is important

995
00:48:32.320 --> 00:48:35.840
for how employers think about what jobs can be, like

996
00:48:36.000 --> 00:48:38.480
how they're talking to employees and what they're expecting both

997
00:48:38.519 --> 00:48:41.119
the employees and of themselves. So tell me a bit

998
00:48:41.159 --> 00:48:43.199
about this and like how your your approach in your

999
00:48:43.199 --> 00:48:45.800
methodology like helped elucidate things in ways for you, and

1000
00:48:46.079 --> 00:48:48.719
like what you might do I don't know if you do,

1001
00:48:48.800 --> 00:48:50.159
if you do it again, like what might else it

1002
00:48:50.199 --> 00:48:50.480
look like?

1003
00:48:50.519 --> 00:48:51.960
You know, yeah, would you change anything?

1004
00:48:52.119 --> 00:48:55.559
Oh? Well that yeah, okay, that's literally thinking about that.

1005
00:48:55.559 --> 00:48:56.440
That's a separate time question.

1006
00:48:56.480 --> 00:49:01.519
Okay, God, it's really interesting. Good thing about Suppose you

1007
00:49:01.559 --> 00:49:03.840
were just starting with a blank slate here and you

1008
00:49:03.840 --> 00:49:09.119
were saying, I want to understand the meaning of work

1009
00:49:09.159 --> 00:49:11.760
in American culture right now. I'm going to ask you

1010
00:49:11.800 --> 00:49:15.000
at it. Suppose you're an anthropologist and you want us

1011
00:49:15.000 --> 00:49:17.519
to design a project. What is the meaning of work

1012
00:49:17.599 --> 00:49:20.079
in American culture right now? How would you go about doing.

1013
00:49:19.880 --> 00:49:22.159
That's a great question. This is a good test.

1014
00:49:22.559 --> 00:49:24.280
I mean, I think one, I want to see how

1015
00:49:24.320 --> 00:49:26.159
people have talked about it before, and that could either

1016
00:49:26.159 --> 00:49:28.519
be literature or interviews that we can see. Then I

1017
00:49:28.559 --> 00:49:30.440
would just one hundred percent want to talk with people

1018
00:49:30.639 --> 00:49:32.440
about their work lives right and like what work means

1019
00:49:32.480 --> 00:49:34.719
to them. So that's why the title of your book

1020
00:49:34.760 --> 00:49:36.519
is also good because it's basically to see, I need

1021
00:49:36.519 --> 00:49:38.679
to see on the ground, how are people making sense

1022
00:49:38.719 --> 00:49:41.840
of work? And then how can we connect that to

1023
00:49:42.119 --> 00:49:44.880
broader trends that we're seeing, whether it's like labor statistics

1024
00:49:45.079 --> 00:49:46.800
or demographics or things like that, and like, so what

1025
00:49:46.800 --> 00:49:49.559
other kind of salient issues come up for folks that

1026
00:49:49.599 --> 00:49:51.079
are shaping how they tell their stories.

1027
00:49:51.079 --> 00:49:54.960
Okay, so your first song was sorred of the same

1028
00:49:55.000 --> 00:49:56.480
as mine. Hey, I want to go out and talk

1029
00:49:56.519 --> 00:50:00.119
to people. Now, not everybody would go there. Some people

1030
00:50:00.280 --> 00:50:06.280
say American culture. Okay, well, what are some important documents

1031
00:50:06.559 --> 00:50:09.880
or statements or who are thought leaders here? What are

1032
00:50:09.920 --> 00:50:13.639
the thought leaders saying? What do we see in popular culture?

1033
00:50:13.800 --> 00:50:18.280
What's reflected there? What do we see in religious documents?

1034
00:50:18.400 --> 00:50:20.920
Or you know, they'll kind of look at public culture

1035
00:50:21.280 --> 00:50:25.480
and so, you know, it could be popular culture, it

1036
00:50:25.480 --> 00:50:29.920
could be you know, again, you know what politicians. You

1037
00:50:29.960 --> 00:50:32.760
could look at the discourse of politicians around work and

1038
00:50:32.800 --> 00:50:36.960
you would see a lot of statements about the you know,

1039
00:50:37.039 --> 00:50:39.800
where people who believe in working for what we have

1040
00:50:40.400 --> 00:50:44.440
right and being self vicious, being self reliant. Right, so

1041
00:50:44.599 --> 00:50:48.800
therefore let's cut any wealthare entitlements and right, you know,

1042
00:50:48.880 --> 00:50:52.159
so you could examine what politicians say and all that

1043
00:50:52.199 --> 00:50:55.440
makes sense. That's all part of culture too, right, it

1044
00:50:55.480 --> 00:50:58.480
becomes really interesting. Right if you look at the popular culture,

1045
00:50:58.639 --> 00:51:01.599
my gosh, right, we get very complicated because are you

1046
00:51:01.679 --> 00:51:06.000
looking at you know, the serious dramas set in hospitals,

1047
00:51:06.840 --> 00:51:09.360
or are you looking at the office, you know, the

1048
00:51:09.400 --> 00:51:15.760
sitcoms set dysfunctional offices? Right, right, you know, you got

1049
00:51:15.760 --> 00:51:20.840
all these sixt messages. But for me, it's a psychological anthropologist.

1050
00:51:21.119 --> 00:51:25.800
Our approach is called person centered. We're interested in Okay, Yes,

1051
00:51:25.960 --> 00:51:29.480
all these messages are out there, and they're very diverse.

1052
00:51:30.199 --> 00:51:32.920
You got your relatives talking about how they hate their jobs,

1053
00:51:33.039 --> 00:51:35.519
or other relatives talking about that they love their jobs.

1054
00:51:35.719 --> 00:51:38.840
You've got these different depictions. And but culture, you've got

1055
00:51:39.199 --> 00:51:42.760
thought leaders saying be ambitious, thought leaders who are saying

1056
00:51:42.800 --> 00:51:48.760
be content. You know, you're right. For me, psychological anthropologists,

1057
00:51:48.760 --> 00:51:51.760
I'm really interested, Okay, how do people What are people

1058
00:51:51.840 --> 00:51:55.760
taking from all that and what really becomes meaningful for them?

1059
00:51:55.960 --> 00:51:58.880
And of course it's different for different people. And part

1060
00:51:58.920 --> 00:52:01.840
of the message is who do you talk to you

1061
00:52:01.880 --> 00:52:04.920
want to understand something about American culture. I got you know,

1062
00:52:05.079 --> 00:52:08.400
it's a very diverse society. And it used to be

1063
00:52:09.599 --> 00:52:13.480
that I people would say, well, the core of American

1064
00:52:13.480 --> 00:52:15.800
culture is the white middle class. So all that I

1065
00:52:15.880 --> 00:52:18.760
talked to white middle class people, Well, then you cutularly

1066
00:52:18.920 --> 00:52:23.119
define me what it is by what this one group things,

1067
00:52:23.119 --> 00:52:26.920
which itself is diverse. But but you know, I deliberately

1068
00:52:27.079 --> 00:52:31.440
wanted to include lots of different occupations, different class levels,

1069
00:52:31.480 --> 00:52:38.519
both early workers and solarly salary workers, people who were immigrants,

1070
00:52:38.639 --> 00:52:40.800
all of the immigrants here at least ten years, but

1071
00:52:41.000 --> 00:52:44.360
immigrants as well as people were born here, men and women,

1072
00:52:46.280 --> 00:52:51.159
so different perspectives. This is all part of America. This

1073
00:52:51.280 --> 00:52:55.559
is who we are now. And then you talk to

1074
00:52:55.599 --> 00:52:58.880
people and you hear these unexpected things like wow, that

1075
00:52:59.039 --> 00:53:01.440
job they don't say, you know, that job dealing with

1076
00:53:01.440 --> 00:53:04.000
spurtsheets was so much fun, and go wow, really wow?

1077
00:53:04.360 --> 00:53:08.519
Okay, yeah, does does it make Does it make? You know?

1078
00:53:08.599 --> 00:53:12.079
When when we hear you know, things like you know, quiet.

1079
00:53:11.880 --> 00:53:14.760
Quitting right, and that that term came up had about

1080
00:53:14.760 --> 00:53:16.039
a year ago or something a year and a half

1081
00:53:16.559 --> 00:53:20.480
like that to me, felt like a manufactured term, you know,

1082
00:53:21.119 --> 00:53:23.480
And and that's like I'm trying to think about, like

1083
00:53:23.480 --> 00:53:25.119
how do we how can we reconcile things like that that?

1084
00:53:25.280 --> 00:53:27.079
So I would say that that comes through public culture, right,

1085
00:53:27.079 --> 00:53:28.760
I mean I think it comes through through media and

1086
00:53:28.920 --> 00:53:30.800
because you know, journalists, we're talking with with folks too,

1087
00:53:30.800 --> 00:53:36.360
you know, and and like, you know, do we it

1088
00:53:36.840 --> 00:53:38.320
a cool thing to think about how did like things

1089
00:53:38.320 --> 00:53:42.119
like that like filter into kind of every day people's conversations.

1090
00:53:41.719 --> 00:53:43.039
Or not right? And then like.

1091
00:53:44.599 --> 00:53:46.360
You know, is there is it important to her? Do

1092
00:53:46.360 --> 00:53:48.320
we need to like tease those those apart and like

1093
00:53:48.360 --> 00:53:49.800
say that you know, if we do or do not

1094
00:53:49.840 --> 00:53:52.000
see people talking about quiet quitting like that either means

1095
00:53:52.000 --> 00:53:54.360
it isn't important to most people's lives and that it's

1096
00:53:54.480 --> 00:53:58.760
actually this manufactured work term, or it's just like you know,

1097
00:53:58.800 --> 00:53:59.440
what is it doing?

1098
00:53:59.480 --> 00:53:59.639
You know?

1099
00:53:59.679 --> 00:54:00.840
So it's it's kind of like one of these things

1100
00:54:00.840 --> 00:54:02.599
of like how do we also account for either our

1101
00:54:02.599 --> 00:54:04.559
own biases? Is what we think we're supposed to see

1102
00:54:04.880 --> 00:54:07.239
right while we're doing research, and if we do or

1103
00:54:07.239 --> 00:54:08.599
don't see it, like in the Funds of Good example

1104
00:54:08.639 --> 00:54:10.039
of like I wasn't expecting to see fund, but it

1105
00:54:10.039 --> 00:54:12.679
turns out it's actually diffuse in a lot of different.

1106
00:54:12.400 --> 00:54:14.880
Places in really curious ways. So this is I mean

1107
00:54:14.960 --> 00:54:15.719
something you know.

1108
00:54:15.920 --> 00:54:17.320
And I get asked a lot too, like like, how

1109
00:54:17.320 --> 00:54:19.719
do we think about our biases researchers to both make

1110
00:54:19.719 --> 00:54:21.400
sure that we can have our research be sound, but

1111
00:54:21.440 --> 00:54:23.599
then also recognize if we're not seeing something, which I

1112
00:54:23.599 --> 00:54:25.880
think is also important. You know, how do we account

1113
00:54:25.920 --> 00:54:28.039
for that if someone asks us like, hey, well you

1114
00:54:28.119 --> 00:54:28.719
didn't see that.

1115
00:54:29.159 --> 00:54:29.960
Does that tell us something?

1116
00:54:30.039 --> 00:54:30.199
Yeah?

1117
00:54:30.280 --> 00:54:33.039
Well, and you know what would I change? I'd love

1118
00:54:33.079 --> 00:54:36.639
to do my research again. Now do we get ten years?

1119
00:54:37.159 --> 00:54:38.199
We know? So?

1120
00:54:38.679 --> 00:54:38.840
Right?

1121
00:54:39.079 --> 00:54:43.199
So would anything be different? Now? I don't know. I mean,

1122
00:54:43.519 --> 00:54:47.480
I know that in terms of I've had some interviewers

1123
00:54:47.599 --> 00:54:50.920
kind of hint, well, maybe it's because you're joking to

1124
00:54:51.000 --> 00:54:54.039
such a diverse group that you're seeing people not making

1125
00:54:54.079 --> 00:54:57.119
work the center of their life. But I actually compared

1126
00:54:57.159 --> 00:55:00.360
the numbers of people who were born this kind and

1127
00:55:00.400 --> 00:55:04.559
people were immigrants to see how many sent work essential

1128
00:55:04.599 --> 00:55:07.840
to well how many lived to work. It was under

1129
00:55:07.880 --> 00:55:11.880
twenty percent for both evans, likely higher for those born

1130
00:55:11.920 --> 00:55:14.800
in this country, but interestingly a lot of those born

1131
00:55:14.840 --> 00:55:19.599
in this country who were and not. Actually, there were

1132
00:55:19.599 --> 00:55:23.119
also some immigrants who lived to work. A lot of

1133
00:55:23.159 --> 00:55:26.920
those who had before their period of unemployment lived to work.

1134
00:55:27.679 --> 00:55:32.360
During that long period where they were looking for another job. Realized, wow,

1135
00:55:32.519 --> 00:55:35.920
my life was really out of balance. This was not good,

1136
00:55:36.280 --> 00:55:39.119
not healthy. They would again go back to that wellness discourse,

1137
00:55:39.159 --> 00:55:42.280
that health discourse. This was not a healthy life. It

1138
00:55:42.320 --> 00:55:45.079
was one hundred and twenty percent for both. And also

1139
00:55:45.320 --> 00:55:48.039
this research I did in the nineteen eighties, these were

1140
00:55:48.119 --> 00:55:51.280
white meal factory workers and they did not live to work.

1141
00:55:52.000 --> 00:55:57.840
So now quiet quitting is something else. Quiet quitting is okay,

1142
00:55:57.960 --> 00:56:00.280
you're there, body not in mind, You're just there for

1143
00:56:00.320 --> 00:56:02.440
the pay check. You just putting in the nine to five.

1144
00:56:02.599 --> 00:56:06.199
You don't care about the job. I think this reflects

1145
00:56:06.199 --> 00:56:09.119
a real anxiety, you know. I mean I think there

1146
00:56:09.119 --> 00:56:12.719
are two things. You know. Is there some anxiety on

1147
00:56:12.880 --> 00:56:17.239
the part of employers that this is what we might

1148
00:56:17.280 --> 00:56:22.360
be see And I wonder to what extent it's because

1149
00:56:22.599 --> 00:56:26.079
you don't recognize another type beyond the one who lives

1150
00:56:26.079 --> 00:56:28.599
to work and wants to state at nine o'clock at

1151
00:56:28.679 --> 00:56:32.280
night or eight o'clock grows whenever. You don't recognize this

1152
00:56:32.440 --> 00:56:35.519
diligent nine to five as somebody who is a really

1153
00:56:35.599 --> 00:56:39.480
valuable employee who could fund fund the job, love the job,

1154
00:56:39.800 --> 00:56:43.119
but just doesn't want to be, you know, disturbed after

1155
00:56:43.159 --> 00:56:48.519
working hours. They're also I have a real problem with

1156
00:56:48.760 --> 00:56:53.440
the Gallop Workplace Engagement Survey, which is sometimes us to

1157
00:56:53.480 --> 00:56:59.079
back this up because there are only categories are gauged,

1158
00:56:59.519 --> 00:57:02.480
engaged and disengaged, and then you got this group in

1159
00:57:02.519 --> 00:57:07.039
the middle and the people to be engaged. You have

1160
00:57:07.119 --> 00:57:10.239
to it's really about your add tod It's more about

1161
00:57:10.239 --> 00:57:14.599
the workplace. Are they constantly giving you positive feedback for

1162
00:57:14.679 --> 00:57:17.519
your recognition, you know, for waiting for cheat, you know,

1163
00:57:17.599 --> 00:57:19.639
so kind of recognition for way to a cheat. Do

1164
00:57:19.719 --> 00:57:23.519
all your colleagues want to do their best at their work? Well,

1165
00:57:23.880 --> 00:57:26.199
what if you qute say yes, I could say, oh,

1166
00:57:26.199 --> 00:57:28.519
my colleagues really seem to want to do there but this,

1167
00:57:29.760 --> 00:57:33.599
and then you come off as less engaged because you know,

1168
00:57:33.960 --> 00:57:38.079
you can't apply all these superlatives to your workplace. They're

1169
00:57:38.280 --> 00:57:40.280
the sheriff of all the people they talk to, or

1170
00:57:40.320 --> 00:57:43.920
in the middle group they're actively disengaged. That's a minority,

1171
00:57:44.639 --> 00:57:46.880
and they may not be in the top group that

1172
00:57:46.920 --> 00:57:49.960
they call engaged, but they could have called very engaged,

1173
00:57:50.079 --> 00:57:53.639
or they could have labeled great workplace. You know, working

1174
00:57:53.960 --> 00:57:56.800
just come in the middle in an okay workplace where

1175
00:57:56.920 --> 00:58:00.679
they probably feel okay, they're not disengaged, but not gets

1176
00:58:00.760 --> 00:58:03.679
used as evidence of always got the ps epidemic of

1177
00:58:03.760 --> 00:58:04.400
quiet quitting.

1178
00:58:06.239 --> 00:58:08.320
Well, yeah, feel that feels so inadequate.

1179
00:58:08.400 --> 00:58:10.960
Yeah, yeah, So I think it's a real mythological problem.

1180
00:58:11.000 --> 00:58:14.360
And I applaud Gallop for wanting to prove workplaces. I

1181
00:58:14.480 --> 00:58:18.960
don't like the way it's being used to as alleged evidence.

1182
00:58:18.679 --> 00:58:21.360
Of dis Yeah, I mean that's a great point, and

1183
00:58:21.400 --> 00:58:23.119
it makes me think of you know, even as we're

1184
00:58:23.119 --> 00:58:25.840
talking about like economic indicators and like national health right,

1185
00:58:25.880 --> 00:58:27.639
we have like you know, the gross domestic product, which

1186
00:58:27.679 --> 00:58:31.199
is a super aggregate number, right, but it's like, you know,

1187
00:58:31.320 --> 00:58:33.599
compared to other countries that might be higher in the US.

1188
00:58:33.639 --> 00:58:35.800
But then you look at like the happiness index, whereas

1189
00:58:35.800 --> 00:58:38.440
happiness index in the US is like fifty seventh or something,

1190
00:58:38.519 --> 00:58:39.840
or it's like one of the lowest, and it's like,

1191
00:58:40.239 --> 00:58:42.639
you know, or in terms of wellness index and wellness scores, right,

1192
00:58:42.679 --> 00:58:44.719
that the US is one of the only industrialized nation

1193
00:58:44.719 --> 00:58:48.079
that doesn't have like you know, healthcare and childcare and

1194
00:58:48.559 --> 00:58:51.559
education for young kids, you know. And it's like, he's interesting,

1195
00:58:51.679 --> 00:58:54.000
Like when we're talking about whatever our markers of success, right,

1196
00:58:54.719 --> 00:58:56.719
it says something when like both we when we use

1197
00:58:56.880 --> 00:58:58.239
like we need to be able to put in the

1198
00:58:58.239 --> 00:59:00.480
same box like economic indicators that we say, and then

1199
00:59:00.519 --> 00:59:03.840
also like workplace engagement as the thing we're using as

1200
00:59:03.840 --> 00:59:06.440
the measurement, right as the metric, because it does make

1201
00:59:06.480 --> 00:59:07.960
a difference, right in terms of both the narrative that

1202
00:59:08.000 --> 00:59:10.800
we're telling. But then if we're blind to the kinds

1203
00:59:10.840 --> 00:59:12.559
of metrics that we're using, like you know, we're only

1204
00:59:12.559 --> 00:59:14.119
going to see what we're measuring, and then if only

1205
00:59:14.119 --> 00:59:16.280
measuring one thing, that's all we're gonna be able to

1206
00:59:16.280 --> 00:59:18.079
you know, see and like, but recognizing the value that

1207
00:59:18.119 --> 00:59:20.480
the value judgments that we might put on engagement, man,

1208
00:59:20.519 --> 00:59:23.119
it's interesting to kind of realize that the top tier

1209
00:59:23.159 --> 00:59:23.719
is engagement.

1210
00:59:23.760 --> 00:59:25.840
It's like, oh, well, it goes downhill from there.

1211
00:59:25.880 --> 00:59:29.760
That's kind of scary, right versus like the super engaged

1212
00:59:29.760 --> 00:59:31.000
in play, you know, versus.

1213
00:59:30.679 --> 00:59:32.440
The the okay engaged you know.

1214
00:59:33.119 --> 00:59:35.239
But even that idea too, like engagement is is an

1215
00:59:35.239 --> 00:59:37.119
interesting thing to think about like I'm disengaged.

1216
00:59:37.199 --> 00:59:40.039
Okay, does that mean the quality of my work is bad?

1217
00:59:40.639 --> 00:59:43.119
Maybe maybe not, but you know it might be great worker,

1218
00:59:43.159 --> 00:59:44.559
but it disengaged because I don't want to like go

1219
00:59:44.599 --> 00:59:46.800
to you know, the after work function kind of thing.

1220
00:59:46.840 --> 00:59:50.079
And it's that interesting piece you know that guess me.

1221
00:59:50.119 --> 00:59:51.800
I mean it has been thinking about this this idea too,

1222
00:59:51.920 --> 00:59:54.400
that you mentioned this at the end, you know, when

1223
00:59:54.400 --> 00:59:55.920
you think about like both future work, but how we

1224
00:59:55.920 --> 00:59:58.440
could like talk about like we need to be smarter,

1225
00:59:58.800 --> 01:00:00.760
you know, in at least more kind just like what

1226
01:00:00.800 --> 01:00:03.760
metrics we're using to measure you know, workplace wellness, engagement,

1227
01:00:03.880 --> 01:00:08.079
you know, economic growth, and then also what that might

1228
01:00:08.119 --> 01:00:10.119
mean for things like future work and how would is

1229
01:00:10.159 --> 01:00:11.599
AI going to take jobs? You know, to come back

1230
01:00:11.599 --> 01:00:13.719
to our labrist and post laborists ideas that we talked

1231
01:00:13.719 --> 01:00:18.159
about up top, and you quoted technology journalist Kevin Rust

1232
01:00:18.199 --> 01:00:19.800
that I think put this really well. That was just

1233
01:00:19.880 --> 01:00:21.599
like we need to be not talking so much about

1234
01:00:21.639 --> 01:00:24.039
like AI taking jobs, but like what's ais effects on

1235
01:00:24.039 --> 01:00:25.360
the quality of jobs going to be? And I think

1236
01:00:25.360 --> 01:00:28.119
that's that's one hundred percent right, Like not just because

1237
01:00:28.119 --> 01:00:31.280
we're qualitative social scientists, but like quality matters versus quantity

1238
01:00:31.400 --> 01:00:32.840
in this case too, it's like, you know, how many

1239
01:00:32.920 --> 01:00:34.639
jobs there are, it does matter, But if all the

1240
01:00:34.719 --> 01:00:37.599
jobs are terrible, then that's different than saying that there's

1241
01:00:37.599 --> 01:00:39.880
like either a ton of jobs but they have great quality, right,

1242
01:00:39.960 --> 01:00:41.360
or there's a few of them that have great quality.

1243
01:00:41.360 --> 01:00:43.599
And so it's like, I think that's a fundamentally important

1244
01:00:43.599 --> 01:00:46.280
piece that we need to think about for how we

1245
01:00:46.320 --> 01:00:48.239
set up workplaces, right, and like what is the quality

1246
01:00:48.280 --> 01:00:49.880
of the kind of work that we're doing? Again, this

1247
01:00:50.000 --> 01:00:52.559
is not a do you have ping pong tables? And

1248
01:00:52.599 --> 01:00:55.039
it's also not just a like are we removing drudgery?

1249
01:00:55.079 --> 01:00:57.480
Because like, again, what drudgery is for some people is

1250
01:00:57.519 --> 01:00:59.280
different than others. Right, you know, building a nine foot

1251
01:00:59.320 --> 01:01:01.760
wall doesn't sound very fun to me, but like the

1252
01:01:01.800 --> 01:01:03.239
one dude loved it, you know, and so it's like

1253
01:01:03.280 --> 01:01:05.320
that's great, and like that matters, And so that's not

1254
01:01:05.400 --> 01:01:08.039
drudgery for one person's drudgery is another person's like treasure.

1255
01:01:08.119 --> 01:01:10.719
Right to mix metaphors there, you know, and it's.

1256
01:01:10.599 --> 01:01:13.039
Like that's that matters because that means that there's actually

1257
01:01:13.039 --> 01:01:15.119
space for all kinds of work, right, and all kinds

1258
01:01:15.119 --> 01:01:17.000
of tasks within work and people to be well in

1259
01:01:17.039 --> 01:01:20.239
workplaces beyond these like broad narratives like oh aa is

1260
01:01:20.239 --> 01:01:22.239
going to help us get rid of like repetitive tasks

1261
01:01:22.360 --> 01:01:26.119
like you know, moving I don't know, data from a

1262
01:01:26.159 --> 01:01:27.719
piece of paper to a spreadsheet. You know, some people

1263
01:01:27.800 --> 01:01:30.159
might really actually love that work because it for them

1264
01:01:30.199 --> 01:01:31.880
is mindless. They can listen to the radio, or they

1265
01:01:31.880 --> 01:01:33.880
can do something else with that, like it doesn't you know,

1266
01:01:34.480 --> 01:01:36.760
we shouldn't kind of prejudge the kinds of work that

1267
01:01:36.760 --> 01:01:38.880
that work and jobs might might ask, you know. So

1268
01:01:40.079 --> 01:01:42.480
I think that's important because as we as tell these

1269
01:01:42.519 --> 01:01:43.880
like bigger AI narratives like.

1270
01:01:43.840 --> 01:01:47.440
We tend to miss these specificities.

1271
01:01:46.639 --> 01:01:48.119
That like in New York, I think does a good

1272
01:01:48.199 --> 01:01:51.119
job of showing us that there's such a big diversity

1273
01:01:51.119 --> 01:01:52.760
of what can matter to people in their workplace.

1274
01:01:52.840 --> 01:01:53.800
Like if we can learn.

1275
01:01:53.639 --> 01:01:56.760
To ask and think towards that when like working with

1276
01:01:56.800 --> 01:01:58.840
employees and work with other people, organizations like that can

1277
01:01:58.880 --> 01:02:01.920
be a huge boon for like building a much better,

1278
01:02:02.119 --> 01:02:04.519
you know, and healthier workplace because we're like finding what

1279
01:02:04.519 --> 01:02:06.239
are your strengths, what's enjoyable to you, and let's build

1280
01:02:06.280 --> 01:02:08.440
around that versus you know, come do this thing and

1281
01:02:08.440 --> 01:02:10.440
we're gonna get rid of stuff that we don't we

1282
01:02:10.440 --> 01:02:11.679
think is boring, even though.

1283
01:02:11.599 --> 01:02:12.119
You might like it.

1284
01:02:12.239 --> 01:02:15.079
Right, I do want to say there are some things,

1285
01:02:15.440 --> 01:02:19.440
some aspects, some jobs that nobody liked. Okay, So I

1286
01:02:19.440 --> 01:02:21.559
don't want this. I don't want to tick away message.

1287
01:02:21.639 --> 01:02:24.760
D Hey, no matter how bad a job might seem

1288
01:02:24.800 --> 01:02:26.719
to me, there'll be somebody out there who'll like it,

1289
01:02:26.920 --> 01:02:31.480
because are somethings that nobody liked. Okay. So for example,

1290
01:02:31.760 --> 01:02:36.360
the young man who was a lumper in a warehouse

1291
01:02:36.760 --> 01:02:39.960
where he was kind of pulling this car and loaded

1292
01:02:40.119 --> 01:02:44.159
with stuff. It kept bumping into the back of his ankle,

1293
01:02:44.239 --> 01:02:46.280
and that's like I'm called bluffers. They would develop this

1294
01:02:46.400 --> 01:02:53.559
huge welt we send in and it's noisy. The employees

1295
01:02:53.760 --> 01:02:57.800
didn't enjoy being there. They shabby at each other. They

1296
01:02:58.119 --> 01:03:00.960
you know, had none of those qualt these that makes

1297
01:03:01.199 --> 01:03:06.480
work fun. Was not intrinsically interesting. That not good social relationships,

1298
01:03:06.639 --> 01:03:13.239
a terrible workplace. Yeah. So another thing that was very

1299
01:03:13.239 --> 01:03:18.159
harmful for a number of my interviewees were was harassment

1300
01:03:18.320 --> 01:03:21.880
of various kinds. It could be around sexual orientation. One

1301
01:03:21.880 --> 01:03:26.039
of my interviewees was a gay black man who was

1302
01:03:26.159 --> 01:03:31.400
harassed around his sexual orientation and that just ate away

1303
01:03:31.440 --> 01:03:34.719
at him, or he'd be here in a raceist harassment,

1304
01:03:34.920 --> 01:03:37.199
you know, that things just kind of ate away at him.

1305
01:03:38.119 --> 01:03:43.559
A immigrants who one who really worked very, very hard

1306
01:03:44.079 --> 01:03:46.599
and was put down by others in her work group.

1307
01:03:46.800 --> 01:03:51.480
She had a nervous break there, I know. So yeah,

1308
01:03:51.679 --> 01:03:53.840
I mean there's certain things that are bottom line that

1309
01:03:54.000 --> 01:03:56.400
every job has to have. It's not like there's some

1310
01:03:56.480 --> 01:03:58.719
horrible job out there that so that he's just perfect

1311
01:03:58.760 --> 01:03:59.719
for you know.

1312
01:04:00.159 --> 01:04:02.679
Yeah, yeah, so totally y yeah, yeah, yeah, And I

1313
01:04:02.719 --> 01:04:04.960
agree with you there too, And I think the examples

1314
01:04:05.000 --> 01:04:06.920
you just share there too, like point out the importance

1315
01:04:06.960 --> 01:04:10.920
of also having you know, a healthy, constructive work environment also, right,

1316
01:04:10.960 --> 01:04:13.119
because it's like your colleagues and your boss can make

1317
01:04:13.280 --> 01:04:14.480
a good job terrible.

1318
01:04:14.559 --> 01:04:16.400
Yeah, you know, and.

1319
01:04:16.440 --> 01:04:17.960
That matters too, right, So it's like it is one

1320
01:04:17.960 --> 01:04:19.559
of those I guess that's actually the other side to

1321
01:04:19.559 --> 01:04:22.159
think about this too. It's that like technology won't solve people,

1322
01:04:22.320 --> 01:04:24.639
and people don't need to be solved, you know, like

1323
01:04:24.679 --> 01:04:26.440
we have to we have to treat ourselves in each

1324
01:04:26.480 --> 01:04:28.559
other like humans also as part of this as we

1325
01:04:28.599 --> 01:04:30.440
figured this thing out, you know. And so that's the

1326
01:04:30.480 --> 01:04:32.880
other the thing that can like numbers and technology can

1327
01:04:32.880 --> 01:04:36.320
obfuscate for people is they forget that there's people behind it, right,

1328
01:04:36.360 --> 01:04:37.800
And that's I mean, that's the entire thesis.

1329
01:04:37.800 --> 01:04:38.000
We know.

1330
01:04:38.079 --> 01:04:40.159
The work of Mary Gray's ghost work is that like

1331
01:04:40.199 --> 01:04:42.239
all the technology that seems super shiny and AI and

1332
01:04:42.320 --> 01:04:44.400
running it by itself is actually run by a ton

1333
01:04:44.480 --> 01:04:48.559
of underpaid people often in other countries like that are

1334
01:04:48.599 --> 01:04:50.119
doing the work that people here don't want to do,

1335
01:04:50.840 --> 01:04:52.679
looking at like images that might be offensive, you know,

1336
01:04:52.840 --> 01:04:54.280
so they don't show up on Facebook, you know, and.

1337
01:04:54.239 --> 01:04:54.639
Things like that.

1338
01:04:54.679 --> 01:04:57.559
And so it's like there's it's one of those like

1339
01:04:57.599 --> 01:04:59.199
in tech terms, like human in the loop is what

1340
01:04:59.199 --> 01:05:00.639
they might say with AI instead of having it just

1341
01:05:00.679 --> 01:05:02.039
fun itself. Is like you're going to pop in and

1342
01:05:02.039 --> 01:05:04.719
like answer a question. Most of all this technology stuff

1343
01:05:04.719 --> 01:05:06.480
has humans in the loop, you know, we just sometimes

1344
01:05:06.480 --> 01:05:08.280
talk about it like it doesn't, and like that's actually

1345
01:05:08.320 --> 01:05:11.840
a huge detgment also because it ignores potentially harassing and

1346
01:05:11.880 --> 01:05:15.360
work like bad workplace environment also right for folks, and

1347
01:05:15.440 --> 01:05:18.239
so that I agree as a key piece. So lesson there,

1348
01:05:18.400 --> 01:05:20.280
keep humans in the picture at all times because that's

1349
01:05:20.320 --> 01:05:20.639
one of the ones.

1350
01:05:20.840 --> 01:05:21.559
We're the ones doing the.

1351
01:05:21.519 --> 01:05:24.800
Work, you know, absolutely, absolutely awesome.

1352
01:05:25.400 --> 01:05:26.559
H Well, Laudia, I want to say thank you so

1353
01:05:26.639 --> 01:05:28.000
much for joining me on the pod. That's been really

1354
01:05:28.000 --> 01:05:31.000
really great to chat with you. So be where we

1355
01:05:31.039 --> 01:05:32.239
sign off, I just want to check is there anything

1356
01:05:32.239 --> 01:05:33.360
that we haven't talked about that you want to you

1357
01:05:33.360 --> 01:05:34.679
want to make sure that we can we can kind

1358
01:05:34.679 --> 01:05:39.000
of touch on the table is still open if that

1359
01:05:39.159 --> 01:05:40.320
is interesting.

1360
01:05:40.559 --> 01:05:44.480
I mean that you're this is this answer all life,

1361
01:05:44.840 --> 01:05:47.119
and I just wanted to throw out that. What I

1362
01:05:47.239 --> 01:05:52.400
love about anthropology is it says, you know, the way

1363
01:05:52.519 --> 01:05:55.159
we think now, the way we live now, this is

1364
01:05:55.199 --> 01:05:58.719
not the only possibility. There are their options and that

1365
01:05:58.800 --> 01:06:02.039
applies to work. You know, work is changing. I mean

1366
01:06:02.039 --> 01:06:07.800
you brought up the rhymes of freelancers, independent workers. They're

1367
01:06:07.840 --> 01:06:10.840
now you know. McKinsey found in twenty twenty two that

1368
01:06:11.320 --> 01:06:14.400
thirty six percent of US workers are like you, they're

1369
01:06:14.400 --> 01:06:19.400
independent and it's and most of those it was their

1370
01:06:19.440 --> 01:06:23.159
primary source of income. It wasn't just a secondary, you know,

1371
01:06:24.320 --> 01:06:26.639
source of income. It was the primary source of income.

1372
01:06:27.079 --> 01:06:30.440
So you the kind of thing you're doing working for yourself.

1373
01:06:30.960 --> 01:06:33.639
This is the wafe of the future. And when we

1374
01:06:33.760 --> 01:06:35.840
think about the future of work, we kind of have

1375
01:06:35.880 --> 01:06:40.079
to put that together with the AI piece, the tech piece,

1376
01:06:40.880 --> 01:06:46.920
and because they're going together, you know, and so it's

1377
01:06:47.000 --> 01:06:49.760
not like, you know, I think in the future, you know,

1378
01:06:49.840 --> 01:06:53.119
it's this becomes more and more important. It's not like

1379
01:06:53.159 --> 01:06:55.519
you're either going to be employed or unemployed. If you're

1380
01:06:55.559 --> 01:07:00.480
working for yourself, you can't be unemployed, right right. My

1381
01:07:00.480 --> 01:07:03.719
black clients might lack income, but you're not. You know,

1382
01:07:03.800 --> 01:07:07.559
there's nobody to fire you, right right. It's just a

1383
01:07:07.719 --> 01:07:09.480
very different way of thinking about work.

1384
01:07:10.679 --> 01:07:11.400
Yeah, and I agree.

1385
01:07:11.519 --> 01:07:13.800
How I'm curious like too, like how are are you

1386
01:07:13.880 --> 01:07:15.800
thinking about that, like as a as a professor, as

1387
01:07:15.840 --> 01:07:17.440
a teacher, like and thinking about your students and like

1388
01:07:17.440 --> 01:07:21.199
helping shape their future, Like how how has that approached

1389
01:07:21.239 --> 01:07:23.239
like either through your classes, through your department, or like

1390
01:07:23.239 --> 01:07:24.559
how do you think about that in terms of like

1391
01:07:24.639 --> 01:07:27.440
what what's our responsibility guess as anthropologists to help the

1392
01:07:27.440 --> 01:07:33.320
next generation of anthropologists figure out this these like unstructured,

1393
01:07:33.400 --> 01:07:34.440
uncharted pathways.

1394
01:07:34.679 --> 01:07:39.119
Yeah. Well, what I think anthropology is good for is

1395
01:07:39.400 --> 01:07:44.599
a look we can look at other societies we happened

1396
01:07:44.639 --> 01:07:50.920
throughout history always had normal work right where with you know,

1397
01:07:51.000 --> 01:07:54.280
you get a contract and you're hired, and that that

1398
01:07:54.440 --> 01:07:57.039
wasn't the main way human beings made a living right

1399
01:07:58.480 --> 01:08:02.840
right for Landia. Uh, this is a small slice of

1400
01:08:02.920 --> 01:08:07.519
human history. And even today, most people around the world

1401
01:08:07.760 --> 01:08:11.199
are in informal in the informal economy. They're not in

1402
01:08:11.280 --> 01:08:16.359
the formal economy, and so you can look at examples

1403
01:08:16.399 --> 01:08:21.199
in other societies for what are other ways of put

1404
01:08:21.840 --> 01:08:27.199
creating a working economy that's not centered on full time

1405
01:08:27.279 --> 01:08:28.279
standard employment.

1406
01:08:29.520 --> 01:08:33.680
M Yeah, that's such an important point and it's always

1407
01:08:33.399 --> 01:08:35.680
as one of my favorite things that I found early

1408
01:08:35.760 --> 01:08:37.640
on that that when I when I got my first

1409
01:08:37.680 --> 01:08:39.600
job out of college, as you know, I did anthrow

1410
01:08:39.720 --> 01:08:41.760
majors all the way, you know, anthrow nerd from from

1411
01:08:41.920 --> 01:08:44.680
bachelor's on the way up, and like one of my

1412
01:08:45.479 --> 01:08:47.680
early colleagues, you know, had showed me that post it

1413
01:08:47.720 --> 01:08:50.039
was another world is possible, and I was like, that's anthropology, right, yes,

1414
01:08:50.079 --> 01:08:51.399
you know that that helps us realize that.

1415
01:08:51.720 --> 01:08:54.479
Absolutely we can go cool.

1416
01:08:55.199 --> 01:08:57.640
So super excited to to chat with you today. I

1417
01:08:57.640 --> 01:08:59.720
really appreciate you taking the time for folks to check

1418
01:08:59.720 --> 01:09:01.439
out your can. I all have it linked in the

1419
01:09:01.479 --> 01:09:04.119
show notes, and I really excited, so thank you for

1420
01:09:04.600 --> 01:09:06.079
doing the research, pointing it out in the world, and

1421
01:09:06.239 --> 01:09:08.640
excited to see what conversations we can generate from this.

1422
01:09:08.680 --> 01:09:10.439
So thank you so much, Thank you, Adam.

1423
01:09:10.600 --> 01:09:12.920
Yeah, it was a real honor and pleasure.